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 2 Pieces are Better than 1 Rookgameknot.com gameknot.com gameknot.com This last game was played between 2 masters, an IM called Epicurio v Easy19 (Master Freddy). Alas, Freddy had a rook and pawn against the bishops, but the bishops turned out to be far too much for Freddy! gameknot.com Here is an exception to the rule but that is only because my pawn structure was badly busted and I had isolanis all over the shop. gameknot.com. So, all in all, I must conclude that 2 pieces are certainly better than a rook. Do you the jury agree, or can you the jury provide some evidence to the contrary? I look forward to your feedback. Cheers and bye for now. Joanne |
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yusuf_prasojo 24-Jun-09, 17:47 |
In general we all know that a piece has 3 points and a rook has 5 points, so in general N+N = R+P. In the second game if I'm not mistaken you have R+P+P against N+N. That is 7 points against 6 points. I think I will defend the side with 7 points (WT), and I think that WT should have not lost in the game. In your last game we have R+P vs B+N. That's 6 points against 6 points, and most probably a draw imo. Anyhow, I think that the position is unbalanced that there are chances for both sides to go wrong (in non-master level). If I had to defend the B+N against a much stronger opponent, I think I will advance the f pawn and offer a draw. If declined, I will simply setup a fortress (That's in OTB, not here where I will prefer to continue playing even tho I have to defend the weaker position) |
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Asymmetrical but balanced material games... 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 Nf6 5.Ng5 0-0 6.Bxf7+? Rxf7 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 w Of course, Black's huge lead in development must be a big advantage. Late in the game, the rook and pawn are likely to come into their own. A rook and two pawns versus 2 minor pieces is usually regarded as even, but that must mean the middle game, rather than the endgame. My 100-mover annotated game ("Great Snakes Batman") features and endgame reduced to its purest terms: Rook plus a- and b- pawns vs knight and bishop. Contrary to my usual belief that the bishop pair can easily be overrated, I think the twin ecclesiastics really come into their own when facing a rook and pawn (or even 2 pawns I suspect) in the late middlegame, or early endgame (i.e. lots of pawns about). When one side loses rook for two bishops without any pawns thrown in to sweeten the deal, the rook usually finds itself swiftly outmatched: Here's one from GK; Bird's Opening White: ronald46 Black: ionadowman 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.Be2 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Nc3 c5 7.d4 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Nc6 9.Ncb5 a6 10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.Nd4 Qb6 12.c3 c5 13.Nb3 Be6 - Hereabouts the game seems about level. 14.Bf3 Rfd8 15.Qe2 Rab8 16.Bd2 Ne4 17.Rab1 Nxd2 18.Nxd2 c5 - The exchange on d2 was less motivated by the acquisition of the bishop pair as to permit this pawn advance without ceding White easy access to the d4 square. White had to take with the knight, of course, or he would have lost it after 18.Qxd2 c5+ etc. Black now had a slight edge, I think. 19.Kh1 Qa5 20.a3 Bf5 - Mind you, this bishop pair is quite handy, considering the relatively closed nature of the position. 21.e4 dxe4 22.Bxe4? Rxd2! - Now Black gets 2 bishops for just the rook. The advantage to Black is considerable. 23.Qxd2 Bxe4 24.Rbe1 Bd3 25.Rf3 e6 26.h3 Rb3 - Having sealed off all invasion routes White might have tried, Black can bring up his reserves. 27.Kh2 Rxa3! 28.bxa3 Bxc3 - Some tactics to win extra material... 29.Re5 Bxd2 30.Rxa5 Bxa5 31.Kg1 c3! - 0-1 After 32.Rxd3 c2, White's rook can not come at the passed pawn as the squares c3 and d8 are covered by the bishop, and d1 by the pawn. Fairly recently I had a couple of interesting R+P vs B+N endgames in which I had the rook. One turned out to be a draw after a lot of probing; the other, on account of a rather unusual endgame bind applied by the lone rook, turned into a win. That game I think I'll annotate. Cheers, Ion |
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Another 2 piece v 1 rook endgame. Just posted another endgame in which I had the two pieces. I was very lucky to win it though. Hope you have a good read. gameknot.com. Joanne |
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ionadowman 28-Jun-09, 20:34 |
Deleted by ionadowman on 28-Jun-09, 20:48.
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ionadowman 28-Jun-09, 20:47 |
Deleted by ionadowman on 28-Jun-09, 20:48.
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Trying again gameknot.com Hope I've got it right this time... Cheers Ion |
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yusuf_prasojo 29-Jun-09, 09:57 |
myrydin In fact, I don’t see why the bishop should be redundant. It can perfectly be connected to the weakest pawn (d4) while the other queenside pawns are relatively save without bishop support. One big strategical mistake from WT is to exchange the major pieces when he could use the major pieces to put pressure on the weak c6 pawn. |
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I've just remembered... Latvian Gambit; 16 June 1989 White: D.W. Black: Me 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.exf5 Nc6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bb5 e4 6.Qe2 d5?! 7.Ne5 Qd6?! 8.d4 Bxf5 9.Bf4 Qe6 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.Qa6 Bb4 12.Qxc6+ Qxc6 13.Nxc6 Bxc3+ 14.bxc3 Kd7 ... Hoping the disruption to White's Q-side would make up a little towards the pawn deficit. 15.Ne5+ Ke6 16.Rb1 Nh5? 17.Be3 Nf6 18.Rb7 c5 19.0-0 h6 20.Rfb1 g5 21.R1b5 Rhc8 22.a4 Ne8!? 23.g4 Bxg4 24.Nxg4 cxd4 25.Bxd4 Nd6 26.Rh7 Nxb5 27.Rxh6+ Kf7 28.bxb5 Rcb8 - The complications have left White with B+N+P for the R. Black will have a lot of defending to do! 29.Rh7+ Ke6 30.Rxa7 Rxa7 31.Bxa7 Rxb5 32.Bd4 Kf5 33.Ne3+ Kf4 34.Kg2! g4 35.c4 dxc4 36.Nxc4 Rb4 37.Be3+ Kf5 38.Nd6+ Ke6! 39.Bf4 Rb2 40.Nxe4 Kf5 - White has won a second pawn for the rook, and now just has to see off the BK's counter-attack... 41.Bc1 Rxc2 42.Ng3+ Ke5 43.Be3 Rc4 44.Ne2 Re4 - Although Black has recovered the pawn, it is clear the remaining one hasn't long to live - 45.Kg3 Kf5 46.Kh4 Re8! 47.Nd4+?! Ke4! 48.Kxg4 Rg8+ w 49.Kh3 Rg7?! 50.f3+ Ke5 51.Bf2 Rg8 52.Ne2 Ra8 53.Bg3+ Kf5 54.Kg2 Ra2 55.Kf2 Rb2 56.h3 Ra2 57.Bf4 Ra4 58.h4 Ra8 59.h5 Rh8 60.h6 Rg8 61.Ke3 Re8+ 62.Kd3 Rd8+ 63.Kc4 Rc8+ 64.Kd4 Rd8+ 65.Kc5 Re8 66.h7 - The only way to keep the knight. 66... Rh8 67.Bd6 Rxh7 68.Nd4+ Kf6 Black's plan here is to keep the K in front of the pawn ... and pray. 69.f4 Rh5+ 70.Kc6 Rh1 71.Be5+ Kf7 72.f5 Rf1 73.Kd6 Rf2 74.Bg3 Rf1 75.Be5 Ra1 76.Nc6 Rd1+ 77.Bd4 Rf1 78.Ne5+? ... I think Dave just wanted to finish the game at this point, this one having gone for over 3 hours - 78... Kf6 79.Ng4+ Kxf5 80.Ne3+ Ke4 81.Nxf1 Kxd4 Insufficient material: draw! Sometimes the rook is a very handy piece... Cheers, Ion |
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In case you are wondering... |
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yusuf_prasojo 30-Jun-09, 20:20 |
Italian vs Spanish ;) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4!? Here is one possible continuation (many forcing lines here, and other variations will come up with similar imbalances): 6.d4 exd4 7.Re1 d5 8.Nxd4 Bd6 9.Nxc6 Bxh2+ 10.Kh1 Qh4 11.Rxe4+ Qxe4 12.Qd8+ Qxd8 13.Nxd8+ Kxd8 14.Kxh2 Be6: BTW, I was told by a chess coach that If I couldn't remember or wrote down the complete game I just played then I had no talent in this game. Actually I couldn't! :_(( |
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Riga variation |
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yusuf_prasojo 01-Jul-09, 10:42 |
11...dxe4, corrected. Yes, I found an interesting idea about this variation after reading this thread. And I have just consulted my "Fundamental Chess Endings" for this Rook vs Bishop and Knight, and I'm even more interested now. Look at how big the possibility of the last diagram to happen. 1.e4 opening is probably the most common. Once you reply 1...e5, the possibility for Ruy Lopez is the biggest imo. Once you choose the Morphy a6 it is almost guarantee you can force this variation. What is needed now is to master the last endgame position. Many books I guess have written that this Riga Variation favours White. That makes people dump this variation. But look at the endgame position in the last diagram, where is the meat in White position?? The bishop pairs?? Before consulting the "Fundamental Chess Endings" I thought this unbalance position only confuse players in my level. The truth is, it is not easy even for players way above me. Here's what is written on the book: "With pawns on both wings, rook and two pawns are usually worth slightly more than bishop and knight". So the first daunting task will I guess be to eliminate one of the bishop pairs... Any of you 2000+ players think that it is easy to win WT position? |
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Not easy |
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blake78613 01-Jul-09, 19:11 |
Deleted by blake78613 on 01-Jul-09, 19:11.
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blake78613 01-Jul-09, 19:11 |
Deleted by blake78613 on 01-Jul-09, 20:00.
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FEN/8/8/8/1R2n3/6p1/5n2/7k/1K6 In Benjamin - Timman, Amsterdam 1994 Black won with two knights + pawn vs. Rook A tough win since if the rook can sacrifice itself for a pawn its a draw. 63 Rb8 Ng5 64 Rb5 Nef3 65 Rb4 Ne4! (65 ...g3? 66 Rg4 and captures the pawn -Flear) 66 Kc2 Nfg5 67 Rb3 Kg2 68 Ra3 Kf2 69 Kd3 Kf3 70 Kd4+ Kf4 71 Kd5 Nf3 72 Ra4 Nfd2 73 Ra3 Nf1 74 Kd4 Nfd2 75 Kd5 Nf3 76 Ra4 Nfg5 77 Ra3 Nf6+ 78 Kd6 Nge4+ 79 Ke6 Ne8 80 Kd5 Nc7+ 81 Kc6 Ne6 82 Kd5 N6g5 83 Rb3? (Ra1! - Timman) ...Nf3 84 Rb2 Nfd2 85 Rc2 g3 86 Rc1 Nf3 87 Rc2 0-1 |
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yusuf_prasojo 01-Jul-09, 23:34 |
Riga: Black Is Hopeless The bishop pair is not the main problem. The big problem is the rook with it's open d and h files. And if BL tries to take one of the bishop with b5, another file will be opened for the rook, and BL's c-pawn become another weak target. BL's e-pawn is the primary target. It can be defended with f5 or with the rook but the effort will only create other weak points (Haven't tried to let it go, tho). I have tried to complicate things with BL but prevent it with WT, but still hopeless. Well, at least I will be happy playing WT when some opponents force this line against me ) Hi, algol, I will send you a message. |
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Yusuf - The mention of the Riga Variation led me back to an article by IM Andrew Martin in "Chess" 20 years ago. He was discussing a line that began: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d4!? After 5... exd4 6.0-0 he diverged from the main line 6...Be7, remarking that "some maniac might try this - the Riga Variation of the Open Ruy...": 5...exd4 6.0-0 Nxe4?! "Objectively the line is unsound, but White needs to keep a cool head": 7.Re1 d5 (7...f5?) 8.Nxd4 Bd6 9.Nxc6 Bxh2+ "This is the dirty trick Black is relying on..." 10.Kh1! Qh4 11.Rxe4+! dxe4 12.Qd8+!! Qxd8 13.Nxd8+ Kxd8 14.Kxh2 Be6 - And now we have Yusuf's diagram of 30 June (the quotes are from IM Martin). This position was reached in a game Capablanca-Edward Lasker, NY 1915: 15.Bf3 f5 16.Nc3 Ke7 17.g4! ... IM Martin: "The sequel shows what should happen when you try to hack a world champion..." I'll give the sequel in a later posting. Must dash - Cheers, Ion |
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Resuming the story from my previous posting- w Play continued: 17.g4! g6 18.Kg3! h5 19.gxf5 h4+ 20.Kh2 gxf5 21.Ne2! b5 22.Bb3 Bxb3 23.axb3 Rhg8 24.Rd1 Rad8 (Martin seemed to think 24...c6 might have been an improvement) 25.Rxd8 Rxd8 26.Nd4 Kd7 27.Nxf5 a5 28.Nxh4 a4 (Black seems to have given up his K-side pawns for the sake of solidity - not that what's left has much solidity to it. It certainly takes a long time for White to break down his resistance after this) 29.bxa4 bxa4 30.Ng2 Rb8 31.Bd4 Rb4 32.Bg7 Rc4 33.Ne3 Rc6 34.c4 Rg6 35.Bc3 Kd6 36.Bd4 Kd7 37.Nd5 Rc6 38.c5 Rg6 39.Be3 c6 40.Nc3 Ke6 (Cut off from the play, White's King remains patiently in the wings whilst the N+B carry on the fight. In committing the rook to this task, Black finds his King unable to defend all those far-flung pawns. Since move 17, White has lost 2 pawns, Black 5!) 41.Nxa4 Rg8 42.b4 Ke5 43.Nb6 Rg7 44.Nc4+ Kd5 45.Nd6 Rg8 46.b5 cxb5 47.Nxb5 Rg6 48.Nc3+ Ke5 49.Ne2 Ra6 50.Nd4 Kd5 51.c6 Ra7 52.Kg3 Rg7+ (Released from his prison on the h-file, the White King enters the fray.) 53.Kf4 Rf7+ 54.Kg5 Rg7+ 55.Kf6 Rh7 56.Kg6 Rc7 57 Bf4 Rc8 58.Be3 Rc7 59.Kf5 Rf7+ 60.Kg4 Rg7+ 61.Kh3 Rh7+ 62.Kg2 ... (One feels that White could have tried this at move 53.) 62... Rg7+ 63.Kf1 Ra7 64.Ke2 Ra2+ 65.Kd1 Kc4 66.c7 Ra8 67.Nf5 Kd3 68.Nd6 1-0 Martin's verdict: "After a certain point in this game the result was never really in doubt. That point came after 6...Nxe4." For patient manoeuvring it's hard to go past a game like this! Cheers, Ion |
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yusuf_prasojo 03-Jul-09, 19:25 |
In unbalance position, usually both sides have chances. In this one, if only BL could create complication... BTW, it is just one forcing line in the Riga Variation... |
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[Event ""] [Site ""] [Date "1980.??.??"] [White "Nikolaiczuk,Lothar"] [Black "Scholten,Hans"] [Round ""] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "C80"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 exd4 7. Re1 d5 8. Nxd4 Bd6 9. Nxc6 Bxh2+ 10. Kh1 Qh4 11. Rxe4+ dxe4 12. Qd8+ Qxd8 13. Nxd8+ Kxd8 14. Kxh2 Be6 15. Be3 f5 16. Nc3 Ke7 17. g4 g6 18. Kg3 h5 19. gxf5 gxf5 20. Bb3 Rhg8+ 21. Kf4 Bxb3 22. axb3 Ke6 23. Bd4 Rad8 24. Ne2 Rg4+ 25. Ke3 f4+ 26. Kxe4 f3+ 27. Kxf3 Rgxd4 28. Nxd4+ Rxd4 29. Ke3 Rd5 30. f4 h4 31. Rh1 Rh5 32. Ke4 h3 33. Rh2 Kf6 34. b4 c6 35. c3 b6 36. Kf3 Kf5 37. Kg3 Rh8 38. Kf3 Rh7 39. Kg3 Rh6 40. Kf3 Rh4 41. Kg3 Rh7 42. Kf3 a5 43. bxa5 bxa5 44. Kg3 Rh6 45. Kf3 Rd6 46. Re2 Rd3+ 47. Kf2 Kxf4 48. Re6 Rd2+ 49. Kg1 Rxb2 50. Rxc6 a4 51. Ra6 Ra2 52. c4 a3 53. Kh1 Ke4 54. c5 Kd5 55. c6 Kd6 56. Ra8 Kxc6 57. Ra7 Kb5 58. Rb7+ Kc4 59. Rc7+ Kb3 60. Rb7+ Kc2 61. Rc7+ Kb1 62. Ra7 Ra1 0-1 |
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I'm inclined to think... Still, maybe the position after move six, or nine, or sixteen, isn't quite the "gimme" IM Martin alleged. |
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... |
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In partial answer to my question... Does that mean White has a substantial advantage? I think not. I've always had an uneasy feeling that Andrew Martin was overstating the case. Rather, I reckon White's position is the easier to play on account of the better flexibility of his pieces, and the relative solidity of his pawn formation. Being "easier to play" means in effect that it is easier to avoid mistakes (tactical and strategic). But if Black can maintain his accuracy, he might well survive. Not that I'm in any all-fired hurry to test it for Black in an actual game... Cheers, Ion |
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In the Alekhine - Euwe match it was played once with White winning. In the Karpov-Korchnoi match, Korchnoi held his own with the Open. The results were One win for each side and three draws. In the Kasparov - Anand Match, White won one and there was a draw. As to the Riga Variation, There is no doubt that with best play White gets an edge, but that is a long way from being unsound. BTW in the Riga Variation played between Capablanca - Euwe, Glen Flear believes that 16 Nd2 is superior to Capablanca's 16 Nc3. |
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