GameKnot: Chess related, opening question

Chess related: opening question

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hortstu
21-Jul-10, 17:30

opening question

I'm just working on openings finally and I'm really trying to understand why one move is strategically better than another, not just memorize stuff so here's the first question I have that's kind of stumping me... probably rudimentary for most of you.

In the Ruy Lopez, 5. 0-0 (c78)

Why is Be7 so much more popular than Nxe4 or b5?

TIA,
Mike

ganstaman
21-Jul-10, 21:29

To be clear:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O

Now, 5. Nxe4 leads to a very different game from the other options, as it's pretty much an Open Ruy Lopez. Most players seem to opt for the closed variations instead, however. I'm not sure if it's because they are better or not, or maybe just safer? Either way, I would imagine that it's more a stylistic choice, especially at our level of play.

5...b5 and 5...Be7 can transpose if you plan to play the usual Closed Ruy Lopez main line moves. The reason that one plays 5...b5 first tends to be if you want the Arkhangelsk ( en.wikipedia.org ) with ...Bb7 and ...Bc5. It has the look of a more aggressive system, but I don't think that it tends to work as well in high level practice, though I may be wrong here.

5...Be7 then is just the mainline. Develops a piece, prepares to castle. There's really nothing wrong with it. I guess it also allows the Exchange variation (or more precisely, the Doubly Deferred Exchange), which should be less of a torturous game for black.

I know this isn't an exact answer, as I don't really conclude that 5...Be7 is much better, but I hope it gives some basic idea of what's going on, and gives others more to comment on.

lighttotheright
22-Jul-10, 06:00

The very first game I won against a Master in a friendly OTB game was playing the Open Ruy Lopez. There is nothing wrong with it, but you have to be careful. If Black tries to come after White too hard, then White can sometimes get a successful mating attack. That's what happened in my game with the Master. I was playing white in the variation and the Master underestimated what I could do.

I play b5 quite often...not because it is any better; it's just different. You can sometimes catch people off the guard.

baronderkilt
22-Jul-10, 13:05

A few thoughts to add; aka, The Long-Winded might say ...

If you play ...b5 there, its almost forced to move the Bf7 to somewhere next move anyway after Bb3 to be able to answer Ng5 with ...o-o. But also the idea of Bd5 is discomforting (to me), after an early ...b5, among other things.
***
The real question as I see it is: Why play Be7 there instead of ...d6 (which is the 'Modern' Steinitz Defense; the thing differentiating it from THE Steinitz Variation is that Morphy's ...a6 move has been added to the Modern. It is not present in the old Steinitz.) Playing ...d6 allows BL to continue that var. by ...Bd7 next if d4, or ...Bg4 after c3 for instance.

Or BL play c3 Be7 and ...O-O into the most common closed lines (Tarrasch, Breyer, Keres, Botvinnik or is it Smyslov, etc). Also the uncommon but playable line with Nge7/g6/Bg7 financhetto set-up. BUT (you knew there had to be one WT has the option of Bxc6 then d4 as well as vice-versa, where I don't care for BL's pawn structure myself; whether he opts for exd4 or allowing a dxe5 capture with a doubled-c-isolani.
(Does that make it a Doublani ?! I think so, & rather like the word ... please assure my Chess posterity with creative credit on that one... Baron's Doublani will do. LOL, no DBL-LOL
***
So the Good part about Be7 there ... It allows BL to play Re1 b5, Bb3 d6 next into the mainlines. Or he can play O-O after Bb3 & go into the Marshall Gambit that plays ...d5 without any play of ...d6. Or the sneaky part is he can BLUFF playing a Marshall Gambit to see if WT fears it enough to play a "preventive" move after BL O-O there, such as d4 or a4 or Bronstein's h3 instead of the common and usual c3 move. If WT does go ahead with c3 BL has the Marshall option or he can say "just kidding about Marshall" and ...d6 takes him to the Closed proper.

In the ultimate Objective GM PLay sense; getting into a Marshall preventive line is probably considered at least a minor opening victory for BL, being perhaps a bit less stress than the usual; is less commonly seen tho becoming moreso all the time & I find the a4 lines especially interesting for WT now. And gives the non-GM BL player enough chances to go wrong to put it on my alternate-play-list, anyway.
Of the other 2, the h3 probably transposes back to main Closed but is a minor victory if WT is one who usually would play c3 but omits h3 permitting BL ...Bg4 (interesting examples involving Fischer, Tal & Korchnoi) . The d4 line, imo is more or less a Draw offer.[I call it the Slow Scotch & Watered]. Besides which we can assume BL has put some special study into those lines then. So he may know them better than WT, especially at the Class C/B levels, imo, where BL's often start making special studies to add depth to their chosen openings, but may not have integrated the WT side of things quite so far yet. Unless its changed since my time it usually takes someone to about Class A, or a few years of play below that, to really get a pat WT-side repetoire, of full breadth and depth.
***
}8-)
PS/ Incidentally, there is no real objective reason TO prevent the Marshall Attack, as of my last knowlege, circa early 90's. (So you might want to Double-Check the matter! For there is new theory since, the thing being that most of that is for WT to use I believe. EG's use of Re3 or h3 or prophalactic g3 preventing ...Qh4, etc, that can be used after the ...d5 gambit trades resulting in Rxe5.) But I am not personally aware of anything to greatly change my idea that its largely drawish with some edge to the knowlegable WT player, unless that was a living GM Bronstein playing WT. Then I don't want Black, but what a bang-up match Bronstein-
Marshall could be having right now! Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure tickets to that one cost more than someone wants to pay anytime soon.

hortstu
26-Jul-10, 08:08

thanks

I appreciate these responses but some of them are over my head. I'm going to read and work through them a few times and see what new questions I can come up with. Thanks for all the help.

baronderkilt
26-Jul-10, 11:12

hortstu

You have me thinking. Truthfully, I have more trouble with other choices. For instance Bc5 lines or Nf6 (Berlin Var.) instead of a6, or the Nxe4 you mentioned. The last gives a much more open position then many choices. But, in other words they are all okay and that is why the answers you got speak of variations rather than "this dominates such and such square." They are not mistakes, so it is a style choice.

Be7 probably stays more popular because it IS more popular. Rather circular. ...and has years of history and many more games played with it, which leads to many More games played with it.
From the Black perspective, it leads him deep to a middle game and keeps him out of trouble, even tho he does not make WT think for several dozen moves if they are a Lopez player. Also, BL believes he will come out equal or better, in the end. Or at least that it give both sides chances and the better player will triumph. (Or perhaps that the "not better" player will draw.

But one can play any of the others, especially those mentioned, imo, even in tournament play and do fine at Class level, probably Expert, and I cant say about Master plus since I never got there in otb
Choose what feels good to you, that has a reputation of being sound, then learn it better than the next guy, and you will win with it. Is simple. You can try each and any things to "Not do" show up quickly, or any discomforts you have with it.

So maybe unltimately Be7 is Not Better, in a positional or tactical sense. Or maybe it Is better but takes 40+ moves of GM play to prove it. Most likely it is Better for many players, and not best for others.

baronderkilt
26-Jul-10, 11:20

I believe

what Hortu might find useful would be if some other players 1500ish or where ever they happen to be at, were just to say what They like about Be7. Or other chioices. There is no ultimate answer for or against, after all. Or at least Garri & Magnus are not telling us, and even They went to the Scotch ... hmmmm }8-D

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