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doctor_knight 07-Feb-11, 09:04 |
 learning/practicing openingsI would also like to point out that though we often like to criticize the memorization of lines, it is actually an important part of learning an opening (at least in OTB chess). Of course, the memorization doesn't really mean all that much if you don't understand the ideas behind the various lines you are memorizing and if you don't have experience playing through the types of positions that the line reaches or if you aren't aware of transpositions that could occur. And of course mechanically churning out moves isn't a skillful way of playing an opening. But memorization is still important. How do you guys go about memorizing lines for practical play? I think I've found a pretty good piece of software to help with this, but I was wondering what other people's thoughts were. |
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It's not memory, it's recognition Abrahams compares the chess game to being in a forest, and the moves are there, camouflaged in the position, just waiting to be found. But that's more about the middlegame. Yet I do feel that what you see on the board is more important that what you remember. And what you see during an opening, are opportunities for control of territory on the chess battlefield. This may reflect my predilection for closed openings. In learning an opening, I study its ideas -- not its lines. So for the English I will read Bagirov, for the French Botvinnik, for the Queen's Indian, Nimzovich, for the King's Indian, Gufeld and Bronstein. To me, chess is a battle of ideas -- of the ideas behind the sequeces of moves --not a battle of the best next move, or of the latest variation. Because attack is about hope, and defense is about fear. . |
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doctor_knight 07-Feb-11, 12:12 |
Of course, I don't want to get into a debate about the importance of memorization, and I agree (and stated in my original post) that the ideas behind the lines were a crucial part of opening skill. I'm just curious as to the methods that others use for opening training. |
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shortcuts to "learning" |
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midgarheretic 08-Feb-11, 21:07 |
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But if you want to play professionally, yes you do have to memorize in today's world. The first 20 or so moves are generally played lightning fast -- even in a standard regulation game of 2 hours for 40 moves (you would think they were playing blitz). Most all of those 2 hours is concentrated on finding about 15 best moves. Anyone who cannot do this gets into time trouble. Frankly, if you do not memorize then you cannot do this. But you are not going to be able to memorize unless you fully understand your opening first. You have to put the horse in front of the cart and not the other way around. |
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For example,I have played a number of Trompowski Attacks as white against players on GK.Many times by move 5 or 6,its already technically out of book....and I have been very successful playing this way because some players are simply stumped and do not know what to do next!No database to follow.....hmmmmm...now what? Another goody is the Basman Defense as black.1.e4,g5.It can swiftly move out of any memorized line's or databases....and not alot of games in a database will be found under a Basman,especially if one knows how to "purposely"move out even farthur away from known theory.I have a field day using that against players,especially in blitz. One more that moves out of book pretty quickly if you know how to proceed is the Soloksky Opening 1.b4.Now there are some lines to study,but not many...and certainly less that something like the "Pirc".This opening is great,if your opponent is somewhat weak in positional skills,since the endgame can get quite complex. |
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1.Na3...... 2.Nh3...... Now black can play whatever he wants for move #1 & 2. After that what "line" or "lines"will you have to study????? Bad opening right?Want to see my wins on GK using this? And this can be reversed....black can instead open with 1......Na6 2.Nh6.Now what "study"ahead of time will WHITE have for this?Are you prepared?The odds of most players being "prepared"with opening study lines ahead of time is practically null. Just the abyss,throwing a lovely monkey wrench into all this line study stuff! |
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nathanman22 10-Feb-11, 14:44 |
Interesting |
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A study in the reverse opening psychology..... You are correct nathanman22.Openings like the Sodium Attack are not recommended and this is an extreme example of generally what to avoid.But you see,a sodium attack game,CONTROLLED by the very strong player can yield devastating results,simply by using a "delayed"control of the center.Or,to some extent,"control"of the center is not necessary under the right circumstances.Control of other sections of the board like the Basman Defense or the Sokolsky does occur many times on more of the King side flank areas....and can be equally as powerful.For example 1.e4,g5.Depending upon whites move's,black can suddenly advance that g pawn to g6 or beyond,usually attacking whites Knight at just the right "moment" and cause a knight chase weakening whites side or atleast causing a loss of what is called "tempo"with Knight retreat or forced advancement into my territory,creating even more havoc! As to a soduim attack game,these games have what I deem as novel value,but with a psychological "sting"if you do not know exactly which way to proceed into the game as the opposing player many,many times DOES NOT.And since there is very little,or no lines or involved databases to follow,then the opposing player must solely rely on pure tactical and positional play.Many players "think"that they know how to crush such obvious weak moves,but do they?Not necessarily!And I will give you some good examples shortly.As to the Knights in the Sodium Attack,they are automatically weak IN THE OPENING because I have forced them onto the end files "limiting" 50% of their movement.But this is the psychological part!Most players have no experience with this type of play.So weak or not,the Knights can suddenly "spring"into action at just the right timing from the extreme flank areas.A chess players brain is many times "tuned into" a Knight being moved from the opening into the c3 square or f3 square.But the same brain when confronted with unusual or erratic or weird flank movement can get alittle short circuited when they do not truly realize the power of a 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock flank attack! Ok...examples?Sure!Now,i'm not going to annotate these 2 games,be my guest if you like,but lets start with a Sodium Attack against a nearly class "A"player of around 1778.Now thats pretty high a rating,right nathanman22?Not to pick on this player,shes a great player,but I want to show you the psychology i'm speaking of: [Event "Challenge from jstevens1"] [Site "gameknot.com"] [Date "2009.05.18"] [Round "-"] [White "tactical_abyss"] [Black "jstevens1"] [Result "1-0"] [WhiteElo "2460"] [BlackElo "1778"] 1. Na3 Nf6 2. Nh3 e5 3. f4 Nc6 4. fxe5 Nxe5 5. g3 d5 6. d4 Ng6 7. Bg2 c6 8. O-O Be7 9. Qd3 O-O 10. c4 dxc4 11. Nxc4 Be6 12. Nf4 Nxf4 13. Bxf4 Nd5 14. Bd2 Bg5 15. Bxg5 Qxg5 16. e4 Nc7 17. Nd6 Rab8 18. e5 Ne8 19. Ne4 Qd8 20. Rad1 Bd5 21. Qc2 Bxe4 22. Bxe4 g6 23. Qc5 Qb6 24. Qxb6 axb6 25. d5 cxd5 26. Bxd5 Nc7 27. Bb3 Rbd8 28. Rxd8 Rxd8 29. Rxf7 1-0 Notice how the knights can suddenly spring into action from the mist! Now how about this very weak opening against a 1374 player who is close to 300 points above your rating nathanman..... [Event "Challenge from tactical_abyss"] [Site "gameknot.com"] [Date "2009.09.01"] [Round "-"] [White "tactical_abyss"] [Black "raymoz"] [Result "1-0"] [WhiteElo "2460"] [BlackElo "1374"] 1. a3 c5 2. b3 Nc6 3. c3 Qc7 4. d3 Nf6 5. e3 d5 6. f3 Bf5 7. g3 e6 8. Nh3 Be7 9. Nf2 Bd6 10. f4 Qa5 11. Bg2 d4 12. Bxc6+ bxc6 13. e4 Bg6 14. e5 dxc3 15. Qc2 Nd5 16. exd6 Rd8 17. Ne4 f5 18. Nexc3 Rxd6 19. O-O O-O 20. Na4 Bh5 21. Nxc5 Qb6 22. Bb2 Ne3 23. Qc3 Qc7 24. Re1 Nd5 25. Qe5 Qf7 26. Qxd6 Qe7 27. Qxe7 Nxe7 28. Nxe6 Rf7 29. Ng5 h6 30. Nxf7 Kxf7 31. Bxg7 Nc8 32. Bxh6 Kf6 33. Nd2 Kf7 34. Rac1 Ne7 35. Nc4 Ng8 36. Nd6+ Kf6 37. Rxc6 Nxh6 38. Ne8+ Kf7 39. Rxh6 Bg6 40. g4 fxg4 41. f5 Bxf5 42. Nd6+ Kg7 43. Nxf5+ Kf7 44. Re7+ Kg8 45. Rg7+ Kf8 46. Rh8# 1-0 Now,what on earth do you call this weak mess that I opened up with?Hmmmm..weak,right?Not recommened,right?But I won just like the above game!I should be crushed to death with such terrible moves...right?Even with my 2400 rating,what is the opposing player doing wrong? Yes,and this is where "out of book"moves can destroy,even if they are weak opening moves. Its all about correct tactical response in unusual circumstances nathan.Many players truly believe that they know how to proceed against such idiotic moves,but do they?I just gave you 2 examples of players much higher rated than you nathan,and they failed. Would I play this in a rated scenario...yes and no.Usually not in long correspondence,but in rated blitz...yes.And its one of my supreme weapons in 3 to 5 min games! Hope you enjoyed these little examples.I have a few more,like the Basman and Trompowski which are also "not recommeded"but i have beaten players in the 2100-2200 range using both those bad,bad,bad openings!!!!! Keep in mind that even "weak"non recommended openings like above can be actually the BEST way to open with and can be a "killer" in the right highly practiced hand.I just love to go against opening theory sometimes!!!!Databases,line study?Whats that?Ha ha! TA |
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When I mentioned above in the first paragraph about flank control using the Sokolsky,I meant control on the Queen side flank area as white,not the King side.....1.b4.And then using the Basman defense,control of the Kings flank area as black.....1....g5.Forgive my misspellings too!I rarely proof read my paragraphs and my keyboard is tired and old...time for a new one! Or maybe its the patron in the mango margarita?Not sure! TA |
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doctor_knight 11-Feb-11, 10:02 |
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As mentioned here or in other strings,you must get a better foundation with mainline openings and more first,before going out on a limb with other "unorthodox" type of openings. My point above is actually just that!Many of those players who lost to me when I played a weak opening or weaker opening defense should have atleast drawn with me or won....IF they actually studied and comprehended the basic tactics and positional control strategies necessary to kill me in such bad openings such as the Sodium Attack.Pattern recognition,point value changes,pinwheeling your Knight off of a stratigically placed central pawn,avoiding doubled pawns in the center of the board or by endgame and a thousand other things must be learned first before tackling a Basman,Trompowski or some Sodium game. So,learning "how to play"and chess theory is much more important than memorizing some Ruy Lopez line 30 deep.Because what happens if I don't go along with what you memorized and throw those knights onto the end files?Do you capture them?Do you wait?Do you concentrate your light squared pieces in mid game to an exchange battle with the light squared opponent Bishops?In the sodium game above,should you have captured both of my Knights in the opening above to double my pawns on the A and H files???Yes?Or no,because it would have created a semi open file for a Rook attack by me later?These are some of the questions you must learn to answer WITHOUT hesitation...even before learning all this line study stuff!Yes,you must incorporate line study...but what good is it if you build all of this memorization of lines on a weak balsa wood foundation? When you come up against a much stronger opponent,it is easy for him to throw a monkey wrench into your plans! And that was what I was trying to show above. Yes....forget the weird opening for now Doctor!But I wanted to show players like you what might "await"you one day when you climb the rating ladder and encounter a "scoundrel"like me that can throw all your line study down the "abyss pit" if you do not have the correct recipe for success! TA |
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doctor_knight 11-Feb-11, 15:30 |
I was curious about what methods other players (especially experienced players ) used to go about learning the ideas as well as the moves of an opening. By the way, Tactical Abyss, I really appreciate your explanation. Thanks |
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I'll tell you one thing that has helped me alot over the years and yes it involves line "study"but not necessarily memorization....perhaps some note taking though.I have been using the Modern Chess Opening series of books for years.(MCO,12,13,14,15).Whats great about those MCO series of books is that they have sparked my interest by nicely dividing most of the known openings by chapter and giving a pretty decent opinion of the various variations,which ones seem better than others and a host of other stories involving the openings.The subvariations included under the lines is one of the secrets to my success.I have played many of those hidden smaller print subvariations from many obscure games,that you won't find in all the databases. Take the Sicilian section in MCO-15 alone.It has 7 subchapters just on the Sicilian,non open,closed,unusual second moves and more.A total of 117 pages just on that opening alone. There are also,for example,about 53 pages dedicated to the Ruy Lopez,open closed and more. But the subvariations included under all the line columes are actually the little "gems"that one can use to an advantage in GK games.....if they have the right kind of fishing pole!The are "diamonds in the ruff"! You can,for example,set up and play alot of those subvariations by yourself,or using an opponent at home or unrated GK game or use some chess playing program and study the individual outcomes vs decimal point +,- advantages,disadvantages and see how they compare to other main lines and the eventual outcomes.You can then plug in your "own"sub-sub variations on the same sub line!!!!!!Confusing? Alot of work doctor_knight!But if you truly want to improve,it may take you years of burning the midnight oil and pressing on and on.I just mentioned one series of books.That,for example,is not even 3% of my book and DVD Chess collection that I have studied since 1966. TA |
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A fascinating conversation.... This is the big psychological advantage of eccentric openings: the likelihood that the opponent will play routine moves that don't quite answer the case. Now, TA (tactical_abyss) does make some cogent remarks in respect of opening principles, but these aren't always so easy to apply. Look at both games. What did jstevens1 do wrong? She seemed fine at move 9, but 4 moves later, White looks the better. In the other game, raymoz developed quickly, and built up a fair central presence. But he overlooked a straightforward tactical point that led to loss of material and thence the game. So, you still have to play the position, whatever that means. Your moves still have to have some purpose in view that you can identify. But even then, if the enemy's opening is non-committal, you might have to reciprocate in avoiding commitment. Or at least, avoiding premature commitment. In the second game, it was to moment Black committed himself in the centre that White was able to strike. Now, while I'm fairly sure I'm right about these comments, I'm not sure that I am capable of putting them into practice! There's more to dealing with eccentric openings than adhering to sound opening principles. |
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In many cases,it is best for the player on the other side of an irregular opening to DELAY central presence,even with some loss of tempo,until you can determine what the stronger player may be planning. By the way,most players do not know this,but in the Sodium Attack,guess what one of the worse moves black can make?After white moves his Knights out on the end files,many times i've noticed that black captures my Knights in the very beginning of the game with both of his Bishops.You would think that when I recapture those Bishops with my b & g pawns(doubling my pawns on the a & h files),that this will be better for black in the long run because of this doubled pawn scenario,right?Wrong!As I have shown in another string posting...doubled pawns in the opening are not necessarily weak....in the endgame many times or in the center of the board,yes....but not necessarily in the opening.Plus,that half open file created by the doubling of my pawns gives me great attacking possibilities in mid/endgame with my Rooks and/or other major pieces!I've won many a blitz game with this weak Sodium,simply because it seems "instinctive"for my opponents to want to capture those misplaced Knights. |
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baronderkilt 13-Feb-11, 20:36 |
Easy Learning ... Instead ... REMEMBER them. (see the distinction?) ... and actually, it is REMEMBER the POSITIONS [Thus you add reinforcement that is Visual, actual Experience of seeking the position as a goal, and even sub-conscioius reinforcement of the type where "The Hand" seems to 'want' or 'resist' a move.] Three guaranteed means of doing that: 1) Play, play, play, play until you see them enough. Until they bore you to see. Until you don't even think about reaching that position anymore, but are free to think about Transpositions toward the position; to reach it, or to attempt reaching a more favorable one instead; or to consider where you wish to go when/if that position is finally reached.. 2) Spend an insanity-night with the Chess board & a similarly motivated chessfriend [or your computer] and play 200 blitz games of the opening variation. Feel free to improvise moves after the initial Key Position is reached, to explore all interesting ideas. But add move(s) to the book depth of your position as well, after agreeing which were the best sub-variations visited; you can decide on a deeper Key Position then. [ A couple Expert friends did this with the Najdorf, after which one reached Master, using that opening as his primary tournament defense.] 3) The Lazy-Man's way. Simply play each of your corr games thru from the beginning, each time you receive a new move in it. When it gets boring, it will be Remembered. Possibly for years, for dozens of games. I kept 42 games this way during several years of a postal event. *** These suggestions should work for anyone, since they worked for me; being someone who did not have natural Chess talent, but gained from work-intensive methods, after beginning tournament life with a 777 rating. |
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baronderkilt 13-Feb-11, 22:52 |
also ... I know a lot of players recommend doing this. and it is certainly the natural and obvious thing to do. |
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AH TA It is called the Fishing pole it is unsound but in a 3 to 5 min game it is far from that... 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Ng4? The Fishing Pole, so named because Black is “fishing” for White to play h3 and hxg4, allowing him to open the h-file. Of course this move violates opening principles. Black moves a piece twice, abandons his pressure on White’s center, etc., etc. But the Fishing Pole isn’t about any of those things. It’s about FUN. Specifically, about Black having fun throwing all of his pieces at White’s king and either checkmating him, or running out of pieces. Possible continuation... 5. c3 a6 6. Ba4 Bc5 7. d4 Ba7 This is the latest Blog post from IM Dana Mackenzie and if you like to see the full game www.danamackenzie.com (You can never just lose to the Fishing Pole. Any loss has to be accompanied by acute embarrassment because you know you’ve been hoodwinked, but you just can’t do anything about it) |
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tactical_abyss 14-Feb-11, 01:30 |
Deleted by tactical_abyss on 14-Feb-11, 14:11.
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wschmidt 17-Feb-11, 16:03 |
OK, I'm a pretty simple guy and definitely not Take Andrew Martin's "The Essential Center Counter". There are (I think) 27 games that make up the key main lines, with lots of branching in the notes. I either collect and play through the games, from the internet or, if not available, input them by hand into a database. I don't worry too much about the branches at this point, but I read them if I'm interested and I definitely read the textual explanations. Next, I go through the opening portions of the games in a very particular manner, keeping track of my results. I'm learning the Center Counter from the black side in this case, so for the first five white moves, I try to remember the black response. If I'm successful, I'll play through the next five moves of the game, but not testing myself. I do that for each game, keeping track of the games where I missed a move. After running through them all, I retest on the failures until I get them all right, each time looking briefly at the next five moves as well. Keep in mind, this goes pretty fast, because a lot of these moves are the same where the main line doesn't branch out in the first five moves. And also keep in mind that part of this process should include really thinking about why the move is being made - the understanding part. Once I've completed the whole series correctly at five moves, I do it again for six moves, reviewing out to move 11, etc., and repeating the process all the way out to correctly anticipating 10 moves and reviewing out to move 15 (occasionally further if there's a particular nuance that I think is important down the line). What I've found is that the progressive testing, combined with the quick review of the next five moves out, makes learning a set of main lines a fairly easy thing to do. I've used this procedure for learning the Center Counter and Leningrad Dutch for Black and the Closed Sicilian and Bishop's Opening (and miscellaneous others) for White (one at a time, by the way). And as a result of this approach, I rarely get outplayed in the opening. I can crash and burn in the middle or endgame (and often do) but I can generally hold my own in the opening against players several hundred rating points higher. Am I memorizing/remembering? Yes, but a good repertoire book should explain things well and used in combination with the procedure I've just described, I think I understand these openings pretty well. Ongoing maintenance of this approach (which I generally don't do much of but would be valuable if I played a lot more OTB) would include adding branching material either from the repertoire book or as folks played it against me (as well as figuring out correct responses when your opponent takes you completely out of book and adding that to your repertoire as well). Having used this approach, I find that I'm reasonably comfortable when my opponent varies within the first ten or fifteen moves. I have a decent understanding of the tabiya at this point and can usually come up with a respectable response. And, of course, there are times when I simply forget something in one of the more obscure main lines at times. It happens. So, in response to your initial question, "How do you go about memorizing lines for practical play?" that's how I've done it. I'm a disciplined, Germanic type and I've learned that lots of folks would just recoil in horror at an approach like this, but it's worked for me. ws |
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doctor_knight 17-Feb-11, 17:16 |
That's exactly the type of reply I was hoping to get. I might have to try this method out. |
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Schmidt's Methoid |
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Lazy openings I used to play the Marshall against the Ruy Lopez, but I found there were too many ways for White to vary before the Marshall properly started at move 8. (I have some particularly bad memories of the Centre Advance lines). So I switched and played the Open defence (5. ... Nxe4) against the Ruy for many years, but even then I found I could not be sure to reach move 5 before White could vary with e.g. the Exchange. So now I play the Classical defence 3. ... Bc5 and have saved a lot of opening study time. |
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You might want to practice an opening for white that has been increasing in popularity at my chess club and that usually ends up spilling into more major tourneys later on.The Trompowski Attack.I have a few examples in my GK games where I won,even against other masters.Whats nice about that opening is that it branches out of book,even early in the game sometimes.Black can hold a slight edge or equalize with razor sharp play...but many times the black side does "not" play the best tactics since there are no extensive book lines(or no lines) to follow many times after move 10,sometimes earlier.A true "Tromp"actually involves capturing blacks Knight on f6 in the opening with whites Bg5 piece,essentially doubling blacks pawns on the f file,but there are other variations that are inline with the Tromp. that do not double blacks pawns. At the very least,I have used it as a drawing weapon for players,even in the 2500+range. Its an opening that should be studied and practiced on both sides incase you get a player like me that decides to use it against you,instead of some 30 deep Ruy Lopez game! I find variations like the Ruy boring sometimes and need a little more spice!So expect the unexpected! |
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the Trompowsky |
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Just some small samples.... I have many more examples,including some variations such as the Levitsky Attack as I show in this list below.The first game listed against drhpatron is a classic Trompowski.Notice I have won all 3 and against master level players.Its a shame to some extent,that more players on GK do not play these types of variations.Going with only the higher stat games like a QGD,QGA,Q.Indian,K.Indian.... sometimes actually yields a lesser result such as a draw or loss simply because the opening lines run so deep in regular QG or Indian type of games that after 30-40 moves or more you have reached a sort of "premium"position impasse that has been played in book a million times over and have exausted your winning chances in a now open game with known stats,more predictable outcomes,obvious playing moves and easier positional/tactical skills....because it has been SET UP for you by ghosts from the past! But by playing a Trompowski or a Levitsky white many times avoids immense opening theory of the other more major variations.Its good to throw one of these "gems"into your opening repertoire once in a while.Its NOT good to always play it however!Its the type of opening that you must "feel"is just the "right"weapon against an overly "strict"in book player,who may run amuck and get lost in these murky waters of the "unknown".And I must say,my 3 opponents did unfortunately "steer"into the wrong river and ended up in a swamp...as happens many times in these situations!(Or is it into the "abyss")?  game game game Enjoy!Time for my expresso now! TA |
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Interesting endgames, TA...game The thing is tactical right from the start. Unfortunately I missed a quicker mate at the end... |
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