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I do agree, Pasha, that scientific studies are certainly present in our discussions of the Shroud, and more, but your posts about Clarification, Magnetic Seafloor Striping, Jaramillo Creek Event and Mantle Subduction, in consecutive order, was a bit too much for this thread.
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 Back to the Shroud
This fits well with the story of its first appearance. The shroud was unknown before about that date.
The argument that the sample site was poorly chosen is just weak. The weave of the cloth is quite distinctive, thus making double blind examinations of it impossible. Each laboratory would have easily been able to identify that material which came from the shroud versus material from other sources. Each of the three selected laboratories was also provided other material of known provenance to date, ranging from Egyptian tomb contents to a robe worn by a particular European monarch. They dated the other artifacts very well.
The original sample piece was divided into four parts, one of which was preserved so it could later be compared to the original shroud material in the event any dispute of this nature arose. There is very little difference between the preserved piece and any other portion of the shroud, nor indeed from fibers adjacent to the sample location and the portion of the shroud bearing the image. The claim the sample came from a portion of shroud repaired 1200 years after it was originally woven simply doesn't hold water--it implies the people who repaired it did a better job than any modern weaver of linen could possibly manage--so artfully and faithfully reproducing the original weave that no one of our present time could discern any difference between it and the original.
Besides, church authorities would have been keenly interested in selecting a portion of the cloth likely to produce the most ancient date. They WANTED it to date back to the time of Christ. Note: No one disputes the accuracy of the C14 dating, Shirlmygirl. All three labs independently produced very similar results. All that is now in dispute is whether the original sample was properly selected.
I am compelled to argue that it was--as this is what the church authorities and scientists who took the original sample concluded at that time. We could continue burning samples until the entire shroud was gone, and none of them giving any different result. No one is interested in that. Instead, we should just be happy the artifact is exactly as it seems--the burial cloth of a Teutonic knight felled in battle during the 13th or early 14th century.
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...and This (Again)
[Quote]
The official report of the dating process, written by the people who performed the sampling, states that the sample "came from a single site on the main body of the shroud away from any patches or charred areas."
Mechthild Flury-Lemberg is an expert in the restoration of textiles, who headed the restoration and conservation of the Turin Shroud in 2002. She has rejected the theory of the "invisible reweaving", pointing out that it would be technically impossible to perform such a repair without leaving traces, and that she found no such traces in her study of the shroud.
Prof H E Gove, former professor emeritus of physics at the University of Rochester and former director of the Nuclear Structure Research Laboratory at the University of Rochester, helped to invent radiocarbon dating and was closely involved in setting up the shroud dating project. He also attended the actual dating process at the University of Arizona. Gove has written (in the respected scientific journal Radiocarbon) that: "Another argument has been made that the part of the shroud from which the sample was cut had possibly become worn and threadbare from countless handlings and had been subjected to medieval textile restoration. If so, the restoration would have had to be done with such incredible virtuosity as to render it microscopically indistinguishable from the real thing. Even modern so-called invisible weaving can readily be detected under a microscope, so this possibility seems unlikely. It seems very convincing that what was measured in the laboratories was genuine cloth from the shroud after it had been subjected to rigorous cleaning procedures. Probably no sample for carbon dating has ever been subjected to such scrupulously careful examination and treatment, nor perhaps ever will again."
In 2010, professors of statistics Marco Riani and Anthony C. Atkinson wrote in a scientific paper that the statistical analysis of the raw dates obtained from the three laboratories for the radiocarbon test suggests the presence of contamination in some of the samples. They conclude that: "The effect is not large over the sampled region; … our estimate of the change is about two centuries."
In December 2010 Professor Timothy Jull, a member of the original 1988 radiocarbon-dating team and editor of the peer-reviewed journal Radiocarbon, coauthored an article in that journal with Rachel A Freer-Waters. They examined a portion of the radiocarbon sample that was left over from the section used by the University of Arizona in 1988 for the carbon dating exercise, and were assisted by the director of the Gloria F Ross Center for Tapestry Studies. They viewed the fragment using a low magnification (~30×) stereomicroscope, as well as under high magnification (320×) viewed through both transmitted light and polarized light, and then with epifluorescence microscopy. They found "only low levels of contamination by a few cotton fibers" and no evidence that the samples actually used for measurements in the C14 dating processes were dyed, treated, or otherwise manipulated. They concluded that the radiocarbon dating had been performed on a sample of the original shroud material.
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I think enough has been said about the Shroud until new scientific discoveries are made, if any. Each person can form his or her own opinion about both the Shroud and the Facecloth.
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More importantly, we need to form an opinion/ decide if we are going to believe and trust in Who the Shroud represents. Me thinks.
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Good Point.
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Winter Storm Gracie
This was terrible. For one thing, I have gotten some very cold weather. But, this storm dumped at least 8 inches of snow in my area with Blizzard Conditions. But, it now gets more horrible because it's even colder then it was before. It starts today as temperatures got down to 0F, without the windchills which is -17.77C. It's not going to get above 9F from what I heard. And, it's supposed to get down -3 or -4F. When you factor in the windchills, it's supposed to feel like -20F, -28.88C. So, this is dangerous. What also gets horrible is that breaking this cold means that I might be getting an Ice Storm on Monday which is even worse then a Blizzard. So, that's where things become horrible, which often leads to more horrible.
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You have my great sympathy, Joe. I know that parts of the US are in a deep and bitter freeze.
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LS
Please continue that description was fantastic! We can understand it now. But when it was written if God would have explained exactly what happened no one would have read it or even understood it.
That was very very good how you redescribed it.
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Thanks, Apatzer!
I haven't really seen anyone else try to map Genesis onto modern cosmology, but I find it far more compelling than I do any modern events to accounts in Revelations--though the descriptions of flying scorpions stinging people to death is eerily reminiscent of helicopter gunships.
I will reproduce that in the "General Science" thread, as Shirlmygirl has upbraided me for waxing technical on the Captains of Gameknot forum, and the "Horror Most Horrible" thread, whatever it is supposed to be about.
I am disappointed the thread she requested I start has garnered no traffic yet.
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Perhaps "flying scorpions" will be helicopter gunships, Pasha. The language in the Book of Revelation (singular, not plural) is very symbolic in many places.
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HE IS RISEN
He Is Risen, a post for Easter Sunday, in commemoration of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection.
Matthew 28:5-10
Mark 16:5-7
Luke 24:1-8
John 20: 1-16
This may seem an unlikely thread to make such a post, but the thread progressed from the original subject to a discussion of the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo. A very interesting discussion.
I wish you all a glorious and happy Easter/Passover season. Shirley.
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Flying scorpions could be the next generation of insect size drone technology
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For a Second
I thought this was the Bible Club, and wondered how my membership got reinstated.
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It is not very often that threads go to four pages.
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If we ever develop nano self replicating technology. They will make nuclear weapons look like children's toys. In comparison to the damage they can cause.
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Runaway Disassemblers
Imagine a namoatomic "universal solvent."
This is what happens to all the better civilizations. The container breaks or something, and the planetary surface somewhat dissolves into a grayish goo, obliterating all trace of the civilization.
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However wouldn't a planet size ball of grey ooze be a trace of that civilization left over?
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I was listening to scripture today over the radio, and something really caught my attention.
We have been extensively discussing the Shroud of Turin in this thread, even though the title of the thread doesn't reveal it.
What caught my attention was the word "clean" describing the cloth that Joseph of Arimathaea used IN THE TOMB for Jesus' body. When Jesus was taken down from the cross, he must have been all bloody and dirty, and anything that was used to carry him to the tomb would have been dirty, bloody and smeared. So when Joseph, Nicodemus (John 19:39) and others arrived at the tomb, then Joseph used a "clean" cloth to lay Jesus out, until Jesus' followers could come back to anoint His body on the first day of the week, after the Sabbath was over. As the Shroud was a long piece of cloth, it must have been laid on the stone surface, Jesus laid on it, and the cloth covered over Him. The image on the Shroud shows front and back views. That is, of course, if the Shroud is genuine. Matthew 27:59 and Matthew, Chapter 28.
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Shroud
we are not certain of first century Jewish burial practices in the first place. What was the extent of variation? Not everyone did exactly the same thing. And how were convicted criminals treated? Remember, Jesus was executed for... I forget what the crime was. Bad enough to deserve death.
So was there even a burial shroud in the first place? Matthew and John were written decades after Jesus died.
The Turin shroud almost certainly had nothing to do with Jesus.
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How could I possibly expect anything else from you, Pasha. Remember, I said above: " That is, of course, if the Shroud is genuine."
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Not sure if I should revive this old forum, but considering what just happened, I decided to.
We all know I'm sure that there's been yet another mass shooting, this time in Southern California. What's made me post about this though is the fact that I live about 15 miles from where this happened. I know this area, it's been such a safe place all the 21 years I've been around (not much I know, but still a long time). For it to happen here, especially so close, I guess had a bit more impact on me. Sadly this just proves that you can live in the safest of places, but that doesn't mean you're safe from disaster.
On top of that, wildfires started around the same area, big ones. In fact, the bad one down here, the Woosley Fire, started a mere 5 miles from my house. Thankfully the wind kept the fire away, but now the smoke is making me feel incredibly ill right now. All Cali needs now is an earthquake. As much as I would hate for that to happen, we are overdue for one to strike.
Well, I guess I post here with the acknowledgement that things only continue to get worse it seems. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of something even more horrific in the near future.
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joveyboy1
Thank you for your post. I hope your house and family remain safe.
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I, too, am very glad that you, your family and your house are safe, Joe. But I can't help but think that the event in your area is a huge coincidence. Is it a coincidence? First, the horrible, senseless shooting. We have a hero there, a police officer, who would have retired in about a year, after many years of service, running in there to try to assist those threatened, then so many young people, in or through their college years, with so much expensive education being undertaken or achieved, and a young madman gunning down all within sight. That situation made me cry. Then, comes this huge fire in the same area, wiping out an entire community named PARADISE, of all names. God must be disgusted with what is happening on the Earth these days. We are warned in the Bible what is going to happen eventually. The earth is going to be destroyed by fire, then made new again for genuine believers. All the wicked and unbelievers are going to be destroyed by fire. Can you imagine the terror of those people, trapped in their cars, unable to escape, and being burned to death right there in their vehicles? We should all ponder on such things.
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We Attribute So Much to God
that is largely simply the result of human stupidity.
I don't think God deserves any of the blame for this. What did the Christians at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs do to deserve slaughter? What did the Jews at the Tree of Life synagogue do? How about the Christians killed by Storm Roof? Were they judged by God and found wanting for some venal sin? If so, why doesn't God strike dead Comrade Groper, for all his lies and vile wickedness? On the other hand, maybe God IS judging our nation for so vaunting this Antichrist.
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You are in good form as usual I see, lord_shiva. God is not responsible for the deaths caused by crazed criminals and murderers, so don't try to insinuate that this is what I am saying, but God's long-suffering with sinful humanity may not last much longer.
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Insinuation
I did not understand your comment about "God's judgment" in connection with the wild fires, massacres, and other stuff. I still don't, but I doubt you can explain it in any way that does make sense to me.
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I am sure you are correct that my explanation wouldn't make sense to you, lord_shiva. But I certainly class you with the unbelievers.
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Unbeliever!
Kill the heretic! Persecute him! Death to the unbeliever!
You're awfully quick to rush to judgment. I am glad that only God and my cardiologist have ever peered into my heart, and know what dark secrets lurk there.
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I think you just prove it, over and over again, lord_shiva. Perhaps you will turn over a new leaf.
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