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 THE EXTINCTION OF DINASAURSDID AN ASTEROID IMPACT KILL THE DINOSAURS?, BY BRIAN THOMAS, M.S. "During a recent visit to a church, I told a group of children how and why Noah's Flood fossilized the dinosaurs. A boy told me he saw a documentary that said an asteroid impact killed the dinosaurs. Did an impact or the Flood kill them? Three science clues help answer this question. One clue is frogs. An impact powerful enough to demolish thick-skinned, tough, monstrous dinosaurs all over the world surely would have erased thin-skilled amphibians first. The same goes for certain sensitive clams, but that didn't happen. Frog and clam fossils found near dinosaur bone fossils look the same as todays's frogs and clams. Harmful chemicals go right through porous frog skin, and silt chokes clam gills, so how did they survive and not dinosaurs? Next, where is the impact crater? An impact large enough to wipe out all the world's dinosaurs should have left a huge, round pit. Most scientists who study this think a region beneath the southern Gulf of Mexico and northern Yucatan Peninsula represents the impact site. However, others disagree for good reasons. For one thing, the underground feature at that site is not round. Plus an impact with worldwide destructive force would have melted rocks, but the site has very little melted rock. The rocks down there don't need an impact to explain them. Magma that rose from the depths could have made the rocks the way we see them today. Why should we believe an impact killed the dinosaurs if we can't find a crater that fills the bill? The size and shape of rock layers give us a third clue that the Genesis Flood, not an asteroid impact, best explains the dinosaur fossils they contain. Each of these rock layers can cover thousands of square miles. A single layer can cover several states. For example, the Hell Creek and Lance Formations were deposited at the same time. They span Montana and Wyoming, plus parts of other states. How could an impact way down in Mexico deposit this thick layer so far away? An impact should make a wedge-shaped layer, with mud thinning out from the crater. But actual dinosaur layers keep the same thickness for hundreds of miles. Noah's Flood could do that. The Bible says that surging Flood waters took months to cover the whole globe. Sure enough, dinosaurs got buried in mud on every continent. And this Flood happened about 4,500 years ago, not 66 million years ago. Science supports this, too. Erosion over millions of years would have carved ruts. Where are the expected ruts between the layers? Instead of erosion ruts, the upper surface of each layer looks flat, as though hardly any time passed before the next layer was laid on top of it by the next huge Flood surge. Also, flexible animal tissues still persist inside many fossilized dinosaur bones. Blood vessels, hemoglobin proteins, and whole bone cells could never last one million years, let alone 67 million. These rocks and fossils look young. Did an asteroid impact kill the dinosaurs millions of years ago? No way. Noah's recent Flood formed dinosaur fossils fast all over the world." That was a lot of typing so I hope some scientists read it. Shirley. |
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stalhandske 15-Jul-18, 22:02 |
en.wikipedia.org With regard to the mass extinction of life some 66 million years ago (which includes the dinosaurs), and the evidence and hypotheses around this, it may be advicable to read this objective article en.wikipedia.org |
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stalhandske 15-Jul-18, 22:09 |
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stalhandske 15-Jul-18, 22:18 |
This is not a question of belief! What I am referring to is experimental fact. With deplorable I simply mean "deserving strong condemnation; completely unacceptable." Who are those serious minded and intelligent scientists? And how do you know they are intelligent? I am not sure, but I have a strong suspicion that they are not driven by experimental fact but by religious belief. |
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stalhandske 15-Jul-18, 22:25 |
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stalhandske 15-Jul-18, 22:49 |
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stalhandske 15-Jul-18, 23:22 |
As I said, I respect that. But where exactly in the holy Bible does it say that the flood happened 4,500 years ago or where exactly is the date given for genesis? All I am saying is that those dates are human (mis)interpretations of the Bible, as definitely proven by science. < Please tell me, if you can, where in the Universe there is another inhabited planet.> I cannot. |
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stalhandske 15-Jul-18, 23:24 |
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As you know, it doesn't state in the Bible that the flood happened 4,500 years ago. Nor does it state that the earth is millions of years old. |
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www.icr.org |
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dmaestro 15-Jul-18, 23:45 |
The answer to the amphibian question is here: www.sciencemag.org The answer to the no crater question is here: en.m.wikipedia.org And of course the impact created an impact winter and deposited asteroid iridium all over the planet which a flood would not do—not to mention the volume of water needed to cover the entire earth to above 30,000 ft bigh mountains could not have disappeared. The answer to the very rare dinosaur tissue is here: www.livescience.com I am not a literalist. I say both God and Man are Spirit and that is what is meant by creation in God’s image. This isn’t our true home. Stories like Noah’s flood I say are the allegories used to explain basic truths to an ancient population and ancient Jewish scholars agree: www.jewishencyclopedia.com www.google.com Literalism is actually a more modern development than one found in the culture of the time of Jesus. My answer to it is God realizes human knowledge grows as intended and did not instruct prophets to teach relativity and quantum mechanics or modern cosmology to flat earth bellef of people with good reason; just as future generations will understand more than we. Wisdom and Truth is found in Spirit anyway not here in this realm. That is the point. |
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stalhandske 16-Jul-18, 00:04 |
I don't see any ridiculing. < But I definitely do not think the dates are proven by science.> But they are. Denying that is completely unreasonable! <As you know, it doesn't state in the Bible that the flood happened 4,500 years ago. Nor does it state that the earth is millions of years old.> Precisely! So, please don't base some ad hoc beliefs of those dates on human misinterpretations of the holy text. By the way, planet Earth is ca. 4.3 BILLION years old. |
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dmaestro 16-Jul-18, 01:49 |
Scientifically an earthwide flood higher than every mountain would require about 3.25 as much water in volume as in the oceans currently. Where would it come from? You would have to have water flooding and falling at the rate of 30 ft per hour for 40 days. And where would this massive amount of water go? The resulting erosion would have left far more evidence on ocean bottom sediments, salinity and erosion of land features and erosion of salt and limestone formations in particular. Also during the Ice Age deserts were wet and there were huge ancient lakes and rivers now dry. We know for example that Chesapeake Bay was caused by an asteroid that left a 12 mile wide crater so such things do happen. It would have created a tsunami thousands of feet high. woodshole.er.usgs.gov An over 150 Mila wide crater would be an impact that have worldwide effects. And the world was way different then: fabulousbydesign.net What is important imo is that our home is not of this world as it seems and being reborn in Spirit is the answer. Render unto Ceasar includes acknoowledging IMO where physical science makes sense. Science does not address rendering unto God or the home Jesus described and can’t change that. My two cents. |
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Dmaestro's Two Cents Stalhandske notes scientists have reliable methods for dating geologic strata. The Cretaceous was not the only mass extinction. The Permian extinction was bigger. Was there two global floods? Why are very few Jurassic dinosaurs found in Cretaceous strata? Was there three global floods? Dinosaur National Monument is a fascinating place. There you find dinosaur bones partially removed in situ in the side of a mountain. The actual fossil remains, not simply mock ups or copies. These beasts all perished in a river flood occurring 150 million years ago. The Cretaceous ended 65 million years ago. www.nps.gov The ICR boys are not real scientists. You cannot take an oath to reject science that conflicts with your religious beliefs, as the ICR people have done, and refer to yourself as a scientist. Scientists go where the evidence leads them, they do not twist the evidence to suit their fancy, or ignore findings and facts inconvenient to their preferred belief. In the debate between creationist Ken Ham and scientist Bill Nye the science guy, the question was asked, "is there anything that might persuade you that you were wrong?" Bill Nye answered yes, that if, for example, undistirbed fossils of bunnies were found in Precambrian strata, it would represent a fundamental flaw in the evidence for evolutionary theory. Ken Ham stated the facts were irrelevant, that God told him everything he needed to know about science in his little book. Nothing could persuade Ham he was wrong about our world. The handful of ICR men attacking science are NOT equivalent to the tens of thousands of sober scientists revealing the truth about the origin and nature of our world. Let us see, the kindergarten children are babbling nonsense, and the medical doctors are adamant I need an appendectomy. I'm going to try the Playdough remedy first, as kindergarten children have a direct pipeline to God, while the medical doctors are in league with Satan, offering fake treatments to hoodwink God fearing Christians into remedies designed to convert them into homosexuals. I laugh at this only because yesterday on my way home from the woods I saw a man dressed in cowboy clothes carrying a sign that God was going to punish Sodomites with death. I wanted to stop and ask him what brand of idiocy he was following, and explain that he should not disparage decent cowboys by hijacking their costume to foist his nonsense on the public. I figure him as a Westboro Baptist affiliate, but it would have been good to know. Possibly he just lost some bad bet. |
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It certainly seems like an amazing, incredible miracle that the earth, and all its vibrant life, producing "after its kind" as the Bible says, appears at this time, to be a solitary, inhabited planet in the vast realms of space. With regard to the Flood, the Bible says that, not only did it rain for 40 days and 40 nights, but also the "fountains of the deep" opened up. We know there is a lot of water beneath the earth's surface. Noah preached the destruction of all life for a long time, and was mocked constantly. There were many people on the earth at that time, and the Bible says, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." Gen. chapter 6:5-7. NKJV. The Bible says that just before the Second Coming of Jesus, the condition on the earth would be very much like it was in the days of Noah, and we can certainly see that happening with all the wickedness and evil that we hear about every day. When I refer to the water beneath us, what comes immediately to mind is the volcano erupting in Hawaii. How much lava is down there that it can keep pouring out? The earth has a molten core. How absolutely amazing. Does it keep on making new lava to replace what has poured out? Perhaps the scientifically minded can answer that question. Will God unleash all the volcanoes of the earth to destroy it before He makes it new again? God's Word says the earth will be destroyed by fire. I am not disputing science. I believe in it and admire it. What I find very hard to believe is that this earth is millions of years old. And if the earth is millions of years old, why is it that Jesus, the Son of God, came to the earth only a little over two thousand years ago? Are scientists going to disbelieve that Jesus truly is the Son of God, sent to reconcile men (and women) to God, The Father, as did the Jewish leadership at that time, responsible for the Crucifixion of our Lord. It certainly is their choice to do so. I am not scientifically minded, nor am I a Bible scholar. But I am a true believer in God. |
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18 hours ago » Reply » Ignore » Report abuse Previous message • All messages From orkneylad Hello, shirlmygirl, www.nationalgeographic.com 1) The idea of a worldwide universal flood can be eliminated on a very simple principle. There is simply not enough water. The amount of water on the earth is constant, and sea levels rise or fall based on how much if it is trapped as ice. If all of the permanent ice currently existing, mainly in Greenland and Antarctica, were to melt, the sea levels would rise about 216 feet. (Consult the National Geographic link above to see what dry land would remain - it is a lot.) In fact, at various times in the earth's history all the ice has melted, which is why there was a sea in the middle of what is now the continent of North America. That is why we find marine fossils in Wyoming and Colorado. No matter how much it rains, the rain will drain to the sea - water runs downhill, I think we can agree on that, so the flooding could never exceed what would happen if all the ice melts. 2) The dinosour fossils we find are buried in mud for a very simple reason that is related to fllods, in a very limited way. They surest way for something to fossilize is if it gets buried, as in a mud slide, flooding river, or under volcanic ash. That way, the normal carrion eaters will nhot tear it apart and scatter the bones. Thus the huge fossil beds at what used to be the oxbows of prehistoric rivers. Carcasses floted downstrem until they hit an eddy and then got covered by mud carried by the current. 3) We have very accurate ways of measuring the age at which organisms containing carbon, which is all organisims, died. The radioactive isotope of carbon, C14 (normal carbon is C12) decays to nitrogen (N14) with a half-life of around 5,700 years. C14 is constantly being generated in the atmosphere because of ionizing radiation, and the very small percentage of C14 relative to C12 in carbon dioxide gets fixed into organic matter by photosynthesis. That is, while a plant, or an animal that eats a plant, or an animal that eats an animal that ate a plant, and so forth, is alive, it contains a constant ratio of C14 to C12 because it keeps getting new carbon in a fixed ratio. After a plant or animal dies, it can no longer replace the C14, and C14 starts to decay, inexorably, to N14, which is non-radioactive and stable. Thus, the ratio of C14 to C12 decays by a factor of two after one half life, 5700 years, a factor of four after two half lives, 11,400 years, a factor of eight after three half lives, 17,100 years, and so on. Even though the percentage of C14 is low, there are a trillions of carbon molecules in any far-sized organisms, so C14 can be detected after even four or more half lives have passed. Using this method of measurement, we can get extraordinarily accurate estimates of how long ago something lived, We know that humans came to North AMerica at least 13,000 years ago, we know that Chaco Canyonin New Mexico was occupied 700 to 900 AD, we know people moved the cliffs at Mesa Verde abpout 1200 AD, we know that the last mammoths died on an island in the Bering Sea about 6,000 years ago, and we have a pretty good diea that the last Neanderthal died about 39,000 years ago. (That is right at the limit of what C14 dating can measure, although all of us that ever came out of Africa have several percent of Neanderthal DNA in our genomes.) 4) Over time, not only does all the C14 decay, but also the very hardest carbon-containing organic material - bone, wood and shells - gets destroyed by bacterial decay and/or gets replaced by non-carbon minerals - in other words, becomes stone, or a fossil. None of the dinosaur fossils have any significant amount of carbon - they are just rock, with the rock having very precisely filled in the cavity in the sediment that the bone, or sheel, or tree trunk used to occupy. There are other ways of determining how old fossils are, including the very slow radioactive decay of potassium to argon and of uranium to lead, as well as our detailed knowledge of the different fossil-bearing layers, which are hundreds of millions of years old. (Dinosaurs lived from about 200 million to 65 million years ago, or twice as long as it has been since they disappeared.) Whether the final catastrohe was a meteor collision is still somewhat conjectural, but the sudden extinction of the dinosaurs by something unrelated to a universal flood is certain. (Birds, by the way, evolved from small feathered dinosaurs, so, in a sense, dinosaurs still persist. Somehow, at least a few birds, mammals, frogs, snakes, lizards, turtles, fish, insects, worms, etc that are still alive survived. It probably helped to be small. The world was a pretty barren place from 65 million to 55 million years ago. It took 10 million years for life to rediversify. 5) Creation science, like tasteful pornography, is an oxymoron. God the Creator did indeed work in mysterious ways, but they were far beyond the ability of the ancients to imagine, so they made up stories. The essence may be true, but to claim that the Genesis account contains anything like a verbatim description of what went on is nonsense. Can you imagine God trying to explain evolution to people who had no way of knowing how old the earth was, no idea of how far the earth is from the sun or, indeed, that the earth goes around the sun, had no idea what genes were and therefore no notion about heredity? It beggars the imagination. 6) I have gone to some length to respond to your post. You can post this or not. I assure you that it is in accord with all of reasonable biology, geology, and meteorology. It is far more constructive to look for the Mind of God in the world the way it really is than in the uninformed musings of the ancients or the twisting of the facts by modern-day charlatans. I don't even know why they try to do it. They not only make fools out of themselves, they also make fools out of those who listen to them. 7) Can you tell that I feel strongly about this? |
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www.nationalgeographic.com |
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I believe), another professor, and two or three students at Texas A&M are members of our team. |
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stalhandske 16-Jul-18, 20:56 |
Deleted by stalhandske on 16-Jul-18, 20:59.
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stalhandske 16-Jul-18, 20:59 |
shirlmygirl These questions are not put rightly. The first one is not possible to answer and is hardly the only big question in Christianity that we humans simply cannot answer. The second question is therefore irrelevant....Also, scientists generally do not base their science on belief. The fact is that there is no scientific observation that would disprove Jesus as the son of God, nor the existence of God. What science does disprove unequivocally is that the earth would be ca. 6,000 years old. But this is not stated in the Bible; it is a human interpretation of what the Bible text means, and science can now show (actually already for some time) that it is a misinterpretation. Many thanks for posting the comments by orkneylad, which I agree with 100% I was especially pleased by the sentence: "It is far more constructive to look for the Mind of God in the world the way it really is than in the uninformed musings of the ancients or the twisting of the facts by modern-day charlatans. " That phrase very nicely expresses the message I had originally wanted to convey in this thread, but having lacked the poetic finesse. I just wish to add to it that (as I had briefly said before), science has nowadays a whole battery of radiometric methods of dating material. The radiocarbon method is valuable but limited to times up to ca. 50,000 years ago, thus not useful in determining the age of much older stuff, such as the earth itself. |
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stalhandske 16-Jul-18, 21:03 |
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