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ptitroque 16-Feb-18, 01:15	clashofpawn Have you read all the answers of the thread (your link above) Some say yes, some say maybe...
clashofpawns 16-Feb-18, 01:17	Yes. And my determination from that was that it was extremely unlikely he was an anarchist. Having read his books, I'd say he was probably a socialist.
stalhandske 16-Feb-18, 02:41	"I worked out an anarchistic theory that all government is evil, that the punishment always does more harm than the crime and the people can be trusted to behave decently if you will only let them alone." "It is always necessary to protect peaceful people from violence. In any state of society where crime can be profitable you have got to have a harsh criminal law and administer it ruthlessly." (G. Orwell in "The Road to Wigan Pier", 1937). George Orwell was a socialist par excellence, and early on saw how this was not the case in the Soviet Union.
ptitroque 16-Feb-18, 05:46	Political opinions of Orwell His thought is complex, sometimes contradictory and has evolved with time. Furthermore anarchism is a very complex concept with plenty of streams and subtle nuances.
clashofpawns 16-Feb-18, 05:47	pitroque He wasn't an anarchist. You were wrong.
ptitroque 16-Feb-18, 05:57	Clashofpawn. It doesn't matter if he was an anarchist or not. To decide, we should first agree about a definition of anarchism and, even the anarchists themselves do not agree easily about such a definition, so that there is little point to discuss further on the subject. But you didn't answer my question : what was the meaning of the term "Orwellian" in your last post ? Did you refer to his thought (let's say socialist, if you wish) or to one of his books describing Stalinist communism ? or something else.
clashofpawns 16-Feb-18, 05:59	I meant what is always meant by the term. > It doesn't matter if he was an anarchist or not. I say it matters. And that you were wrong.
stalhandske 16-Feb-18, 06:06	@clashofpawns I think you should be more careful about your statements. Here, in this Club, it is not so important to run off with the title: "I was right - they were wrong"! Orwell clearly had some anarchistic ideas/tendencies - I gave an example of that from his own writings, which you ignored. <I meant what is always meant by the term.> Right, in your closed "entire world" of......USA.
clashofpawns 16-Feb-18, 06:07	> Right, in your closed "entire world" of......USA. No in the world of political science / literature / etc. Where the term 'Orwellian' has a very obvious meaning. Unbelievable that you don't know exactly what that meaning is. I wonder if maybe you are not as educated as I had thought!
stalhandske 16-Feb-18, 06:14	I missed one point....I thought the term under discussion was anachism, but it was Orwellian. My bad
clashofpawns 16-Feb-18, 06:15	> I missed one point....I thought the term under discussion was anachism, but it was Orwellian. My bad Ahh. Then I re-elevate you to your highly educated level.
stalhandske 16-Feb-18, 06:17	...and I bow in appreciation of this elevation by someone with an intelligence quotient beyond 300
ace-of-aces 16-Feb-18, 06:26	George Orwell is anti-totalitarianism. clashofpawns is correct. He is not anarchist if you read his book, " Animal Farm " which is about former communist Soviet Union under dictator Stalin who killed millions of people by starving to death or executing them with little suspicion. He is a socialist democrat. -------------------------------------------------------- Eric Arthur Blair (25 June 1903 – 21 January 1950),[1] better known by his pen name George Orwell, was an English novelist, essayist, journalist, and critic. His work is marked by lucid prose, awareness of social injustice, opposition to totalitarianism, and outspoken support of democratic socialism.[2][3 This illustrates very well the totalitarian tendency which is explicit in the anarchist or pacifist vision of Society. In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.”
stalhandske 16-Feb-18, 06:35	Ace-of-aces <He is not anarchist if you read his book, " Animal Farm "> Is that so? And he may be an anachist if you don't (read his book)? But about anarchism, I suggest you read "The Road to Wigan Pier" from 1937. Please, be back on this thread when you have done that.
clashofpawns 16-Feb-18, 06:40	I think I shall reread Animal Farm and 1984. Fun books.
ptitroque 16-Feb-18, 06:47	Anarchism Is worth discussing. For some, it's a way of conducting your own life, a philosophy : free thinking, never accept an idea blindly, acceptation of the differences, even if you disagree with them, free love, pacifism... For some thinkers (Bakunin, Kropotkin...), it's a model of society closed to communism, except that they do not believe in the dictate of proletariat as a way to achieve it. This trend is sometimes called libertarian socialism. This trend requires a lot of organisation to ensure that nobody can retain the might. The anarcho-syndicalism, is related to this stream. Another stream is based on individualism, individual freedom meaning as little state as possible (minarchy). Among this stream you find educators like Paolo Freire who still inspires some schools all around the world. Some anarchists restrict anarchism to a community life, not trying to impose it to the rest of the society. They also differ about the way to achieve their goals : education of the people, strike and demonstrations, sabotage, terrorism, violent revolution... There is even a christian anarchism (although it's a bit strange) : Tolstoï is the most famous member of this stream, obviously not recognised as anarchist by all other anarchists ! As you seem to know the subject, you surely know that in the US those different streams have existed and have been represented by eminent personalities.
clashofpawns 16-Feb-18, 06:48	To me an anarchist is a small yet devastating step beyond a libertarian on both political axes.
stalhandske 16-Feb-18, 06:48	Deleted by stalhandske on 16-Feb-18, 06:49.
stalhandske 16-Feb-18, 06:49	<I think I shall reread Animal Farm and 1984. Fun books. > Yes, sure, although "fun" in this connection is very "American". In my opinion neither book is fun but very serious glimpses of possible future socities (read: some current societies already).
stalhandske 16-Feb-18, 06:54	<To me an anarchist is a small yet devastating step beyond a libertarian on both political axes. > To me, "libertanian" was something I have "learned" from these threads (and the USA). I don't know about ptitroque, but we don't seem to have that in Europe - or do we? An anarchist is - by definition - against the establishment. Some of the posts in this Club from softaire and winslow (may be others, too) are indeed very much against the establishment. Are they anarchists?
clashofpawns 16-Feb-18, 06:57	That's not the definition I learned. It's better to view the political spectrum as two dimensional rather than one dimensional (left/right) The axes are social and economic. And refer to ones view of how much control/regulation the government should exert over these two things. Libertarians are those that believe the government should have limited influence on both social and economic matters. Anarchist is even further along that diagonal saying there should be basically no government at all. Socialists are those who want the government to regulate everything. Most liberals are actually socialists and want the government to control everything.
ace-of-aces 16-Feb-18, 07:00	Stal. The book does not contradict my statement. en.wikipedia.org The book is the story about working conditions of the coal miners in UK. They were exploited by Capitalists who had no mercy on the welfare of the masses who were exploited. Orwell wanted social welfare reform of the oppressed working masses. You often cited and often praised the social welfare programs of Nordic countries including Finland. That is the way, Orwell wanted reform. Nordic countries are doing well under democracy. Anarchists are like terrorists who will set their own rules and will eliminate any other decent rules of law.
clashofpawns 16-Feb-18, 07:02	> Yes, sure, although "fun" in this connection is very "American". In my opinion neither book is fun but very serious glimpses of possible future socities (read: some current societies already). Every time you generalize some opinion or statement of mine as "American" you reveal how little you understand of America and Americans. We have fifty "nations" each with a completely different culture and values and laws. And as a whole, our country has a vastly more complex and richer culture than any other nation on Earth. For example, Californians are even more insufferably liberal than you. And most of Texas is even more right wing than anyone in this club that posts regularly. Florida is an absolute hellhole. Then there's the North where people act (and sound) very much like Canadians. They're extremely friendly and trusting and.. naive. I can't stand most of them. Then there's the cajun culture in the deep south. New England. And several other strong sub-cultures as well. Some of which I don't know anything about other than to know that they exist. Europe has nothing like this. Without spending some time traveling around the great microcosm that is the US, you will never be able to relate to it properly and will continue to sound rather ignorant about it   I highly recommend visiting. It's a better place than most places in Europe.
stalhandske 16-Feb-18, 07:04	That's not really very far from my views. And I agree that there should be many more dimensions than left/right in politics. This is what you should work about in America. In Europe we have had that for some time. <Socialists are those who want the government to regulate everything. > That's a truth with modification. I suggest that you acquaint yorself with the political system in the Nordic countries. <Most liberals are actually socialists and want the government to control everything> Same as above. These expressed attitudes are unfortunate, because they reveal a fundamental lack of knowledge, and a belief that they have all been tested out in the USA. They have not.
ptitroque 16-Feb-18, 07:07	clashofpawn "To me an anarchist is a small yet devastating step beyond a libertarian on both political axes." This is in no way a definition. You use the term Libertarian, which is often use as a synonym of anarchy to define this thinking. Some ideas, widespread now, have been introduced by anarchists : they were the first to consider men and women as absolutely equal in rights. Louise Michel in France, Voltairine de Cleyre in the US, have fought for it, at the risk of their own liberty and life, at a time where it was revolutionary ideas. They particularly insisted on education of the females (both were teachers) If you've had the opportunity to make studies, it's, at least partly due to those anarchists. The conservatives in the 19th century thought that it was a stupid and dangerous idea. en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
stalhandske 16-Feb-18, 07:08	<Europe has nothing like this. Without spending some time traveling around the great microcosm that is the US, you will never be able to relate to it properly and will continue to sound rather ignorant about it I highly recommend visiting. It's a better place than most places in Europe. > Wheeev! So when did you visit Europe last? I am visiting the USA regularly - and I lived there for more than a year (in the 1970's before you were born).
clashofpawns 16-Feb-18, 07:11	stalhandske I've visited Europe three times. Germany and Norway are my favorite places by far. Though the mass immigration is absolutely ruining it and I won't return to Germany for that reason. I have a natural gift for languages and getting to use several of them in a short period was my primary incentive for visiting. I also found that people in Europe are in general, FAR less friendly than Americans. This was rather startling and unsettling for me but reading on the subject I found that this is frequently found to be the case. Americans have a natural tendency to be friendly to everyone. With Europeans, their personalities are different. Italians were by far the worst. Shame because it was one of my favorite places, geographically.
stalhandske 16-Feb-18, 07:15	<And as a whole, our country has a vastly more complex and richer culture than any other nation on Earth. > As long as you can say that yourself! But your claim is truly naive and reveals the vast lack of information that you have, but don't realise. I should not say this, but just compare with China, Russia, India, Europe, the cultures of which are far older than yours, and in fact the basis of your culture!
ptitroque 16-Feb-18, 07:16	Clashofpawn "Europe has nothing like this." How can you be sure ? In France there are at least 4 regional languages, still more or less spoken. Each of those languages is related to a culture (music, traditional sports and games, cooking, mentality, political opinions). Same in Britain, Spain and many other countries. We all tend to consider foreign countries as a whole but the reality is far more complex.
clashofpawns 16-Feb-18, 07:18	> I should not say this, but just compare with China, Russia, India, Europe, the cultures of which are far older than yours, and in fact the basis of your culture! I don't measure it by age. Why would I? Culture evolves and changes over time. Which means you can factor time out of depth. The rest of the world copies pretty much everything we do for a reason. > In France there are at least 4 regional languages America has far more dialects of English. > We all tend to consider foreign countries as a whole but the reality is far more complex. America is, as I said, 50 unique nations. If you don't see that, look at a map.
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