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From	Message
clashofpawns 08-Jan-18, 14:40	ace-of-aces could you show the lien you used to arrive at this position?
elyhim 08-Jan-18, 15:05	Respectfully The line I gave is forced up to Nd4. After that black has two main defenses. Bb7, Rac8 if 14...Bb7 then 15. h3 Nh6 16. Qd4 Nf7 17. Rfc1 white has an enduring edge. If 14. Rac8 then white plays 15. a4 Ngxe5 (15. ...dxc4 16. Nxc6 rxc6 17. Bxc6 Ndxe5 +=) 16.axb6 axb6 17. Ne2 white has the edge still. In conclusion it is my opinion that the move 12. Ne5 gives many more pitfalls to avoid. Some pitfalls that even cyrano may have difficult seeing all the way through.
canuktuff 08-Jan-18, 15:29	elyhim there is a miscalculation there in your line ..if Bb7 we cant play h3 because black simply takeE5 ?? and we lose all our little advantage !Knight will not goes Nh6
canuktuff 08-Jan-18, 15:33	continue but insted of ..after Bb7 our knight goes back to f3 and we are protecting e5
ace-of-aces 08-Jan-18, 15:53	clashofpawns Here are the sequence of moves from my analysis for the position that I mentioned. 1. d4--e6 2. c4--f5 3. g3--Nf6 4. Bg2--c6 5. Nf3--d5 6. 0-0--Bd6 7. b3--Qe7 8. e3--0-0 9. Nc3--b6 10. Bb2--Nbd7 !!. Ne2--Ba6 12. Ne5--Bxe5 13. dxe5--Ng4 14. Nd4--Rac8 15. cxd5--Bxf1 16. d6--Qe8 17. Qxf1--Ndxe5 18. Rd1--Rd8 19. h3--Nxd2 20. Kxf2--Rxd6 21. Nf3--Ng4 22. hxg4--Rxd1 23. Qxd1--fxg4 24. Qd4--Qg6 25. b4--gxf3 26. Bxf3--Qf7 27. Qg4--c5 28. bxc5--bxc5 29. Ke2--Qg6 30. Qg6--hxg6 31. Ba3--Rb8 32. Kd3--Rb5 33. Kc4--Ra5 34. Kb3--
ace-of-aces 08-Jan-18, 16:06	canuktuff. White N is on e2 and there is no way, we can go back to Nf3. Nd3 can go back to Nf3 but this is the subsequent move.
canuktuff 08-Jan-18, 17:07	ace-of-aces elyhim sequence was Ne5...Bxe5...........dxe5...Ng4...........Nd4...Bb7........H3 ???
canuktuff 08-Jan-18, 17:21	continue as for your sequence ...my little brain cant go 24 moves ahead lol ..but not bad analyses !
redfoxrising 08-Jan-18, 17:32	Current Board This is the current board
ace-of-aces 08-Jan-18, 21:32	I vote 12. Rc1 before considering white's Nf3 jump to e5. I will switch to Rc1 from my previous move Ne5 to save the white's pawn.
ace-of-aces 09-Jan-18, 08:06	canuktuff said : as for your sequence ...my little brain cant go 24 moves ahead lol ..but not bad analyses ! ---------------------- Thanks for your comment but that is not true. I have an average brain. You can figure out the many moves on abalysis chess board. GK has analysis board which is more convenient than real chess board analysis because we can do it in short time and no misplacement of chess pieces and pawns. I wish I have a photographic memory and imaginary chess board in my memory. I prefer OTB chess tournaments which prohibit extra analysis board, books, computers, coach etc. This is the real test of the chess game.
ipsissimus 12-Jan-18, 02:19	Deleted by ipsissimus on 12-Jan-18, 02:20.
ipsissimus 12-Jan-18, 03:29	My vote is 12.Ne5 You say, "What?". If ------ Nxe5 dxe5 Bxe5 Bxe5 and black has lost a piece! If Bxe5 the result is the same. Black must leave our well posted Knight alone! From e5 it protects our c4 pawn. White is better! This hole at e5 is one of the weaknesses of the Dutch Defense. I think the Dutch is unsound! Martin
dmaestro 12-Jan-18, 05:03	I’ll support that move because the Dutch works well when we don’t attack it’s weaknesses
canuktuff 12-Jan-18, 06:58	ipsissimus i dont think they will tolerate our knight on e5 boss ..but i would like to know where we are going with this move ? are we following the previous mentioned sequence ?ne5...Bxe5..........dxe5...ng4.....nd4 and wait to see if they play Bb7 or Rc8 ? or what is the plan here ? as i said before ..i will vote either way Rc1 or Ne5
ace-of-aces 12-Jan-18, 07:14	If Ipsi votes 12. Ne5 ---Bxe5 Black will respond with 12...Bxe5 and not by 12....Nxe5 which is his wishful thinking. Please check the following serial diagrams. after 12....Bxe5 The sequence of Ipsi's moves are 12.Ne5---Bxe5 13.dxe5--Ng4 and then how will White defend e5 pawn ? If White defends e5 by f4, Black's .....Ng4 will capture d3, that is Nxd3 after which White will lose R because of fork --White's R & Q. I prefer prophylactic 12.Rc1 move first.
ipsissimus 12-Jan-18, 11:09	Deleted by ipsissimus on 12-Jan-18, 11:10.
ipsissimus 12-Jan-18, 11:11	It does not matter Which way black takes because the result is the same and of course we lose a pawn but we have a much better position. The probable response from black is N5xe5 but now we drive the night away with f4 which will probably drive the Knight back to g4 and we control Blacks weak e5 hole. If Rc1 is played. the resulting position is not bad and probably brings Rac8. This position however is not as good as the one we get with my continuation although we are playing a pawn down in my version. Martin
canuktuff 12-Jan-18, 11:32	ipsissimus you are right .but i checked out the f4 ..knight goes back to g4 (it will give us a good advantage ) i don't think they will play it ..but they will go back to f7 threatening our pawn on d6 and in return we will be deep in their territory and taking c6 on the way to equalise the material ..here is how i see it nd4...rac8..........cxd5...Bxf1..........d6...Qe8..........Qxf1...ngxe5.........f4....nf7.........nxc6...nxd6 if ng4.......nxc6...and we got some good play coming ! so here is the question again ..is this our plan ? because at the end of this fight neither we or them got an advantage ! except may be the bragging rights of being deep in this area lol !
clashofpawns 12-Jan-18, 12:22	I really can't decide between the two moves I mentioned. I will go with whichever of those two options has the majority.
ace-of-aces 12-Jan-18, 13:05	12.Rac1 versus Ne5 move. I can agree with CoP that it is difficult to say which move is better. The beauty of the chess is that there are so many alternative moves, we cannot predict the final outcome. According to my analysis that I showed before, if we follow Ipsi's move we have a slight advantage at move 34. I will follow with the majority flow.
ipsissimus 12-Jan-18, 17:15	With correct play Either move arrives at positions which are approximately equal but my move produces more complications and I am hoping that they will lose their way. This gets so complicated that even cyrano might not be able to calculate accurately. I have beat this thing to death and can not go further than I have at this time. canuktuff you are correct they probably play Nf7. Martin
ace-of-aces 12-Jan-18, 17:36	I speculate that if 12.Rac1----Ne4 will be Black's response. The Black N will be untouchable for a moment and will be very powerful at the center in the following diagram below. The alternative move is 12....Rad8. In both moves, the position is equal.
canuktuff 12-Jan-18, 18:00	Ne5 ok then we are going for war lol..Ne5 is my final vote
ace-of-aces 12-Jan-18, 18:20	canuktuff. Can you please clarify, when do you want White's Ne5 move ? at 11.Nef in current position or 13.Ne5 in my latest diagram, sacrificing a pawn. At least you have to explain the advantage of pawn sacrifice to justify your move.
canuktuff 12-Jan-18, 20:14	Ne5 its now ..move 12 ..but we still waiting on the rest of the field, so far i think ipsissmus..and me confirming ne5
elyhim 12-Jan-18, 20:18	I started the Ne5 bandwagon
canuktuff 12-Jan-18, 20:25	explanation as for why the pawn sacrifice ..we will not lose a pawn but will exchange rock with a Bishop. here is the sequence ..ne5...Bxe5......dxe5...ng4.........Nd4...Rac8.......cxd5...Bxf1......d6...Qe8 Qxf1...ngxe5...........f4...Nf7........Nxc6...Nxd6 but only if they played it this way . history in the making ...simon(me ) is calculating 16 moves !! hurrrayyy lolol thanks to all these discussions lol
canuktuff 12-Jan-18, 20:27	elyhim sorry boss ..yes ...so we are three confirming ne5
ace-of-aces 12-Jan-18, 20:34	Sorry for my error of move 11.Ne5. Yes, it will be 12.Nef if majority agree. I speculate and expect that Black will respond with 12.....Bxe5. and white will respond with 13.dxe5---Ng4
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