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andrew983 22-Nov-16, 16:57 |
 And I love discussing Scripture and hearing different points of view as it can only expand my knowledge of the Good Book. |
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lordmonkeymouth 22-Nov-16, 17:47 |
"Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not." |
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shirlmygirl 15-Jun-16, 11:50 There are scriptures to dispute the old saying, "Once saved, always saved". Two scriptures are quoted below. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. Hebrews 10:26 KJV For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb. The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:21-22. KJV These scriptures in all probability mean that after a person is saved, he turns and totally rejects God, for we know that God does not wish any to perish but that all would come to repentance. |
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lordmonkeymouth 22-Nov-16, 18:29 |
Shirley Thanks. |
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lordmonkeymouth 22-Nov-16, 18:43 |
Shirley Just call me, Jack, until then I always found you honest and real. You fight for just causes. One of my favorite, former captains to broker with. |
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saintinsanity 22-Nov-16, 18:57 |
I have a Heck of an imagination. I could image a Christian doing something so deliberately terrible that it amounts to a complete rejection of salvation. I think Shirl is closer to correct in this interpretation. |
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saintinsanity 22-Nov-16, 19:10 |
I have to wonder if that assertion makes sense. |
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lordmonkeymouth 22-Nov-16, 19:15 |
Isaac Shirley, I look forward to this discussion. Thank you. It's really great to know that you won't be attacked here. Seriously, I'm glad for that. No hyperbole. Good introduction. |
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saintinsanity 22-Nov-16, 19:28 |
There is always the comfort that we will learn the truth when we die. |
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lordmonkeymouth 22-Nov-16, 19:32 |
Shirley |
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saintinsanity 22-Nov-16, 19:33 |
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andrew983 22-Nov-16, 19:51 |
@shirlmygirl My own view is that once a person accepts Christ, he or she receives the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, which serves as a counselor, advocate, guide, helper and comforter. If a person has God's Holy Spirit inside him or her, I think willful and habitual sinning would be anathema to that person. Not that he or she will never sin again (the battle of the flesh and spirit always goes on to some extent,) but habitual and willful sinning would seem to me to indicate that the person was not truly saved to begin with. Just as "good works" are a byproduct or manifestation of someone who is saved, so continual and willful sinning seems to me to be a sign that someone is not saved. I think that's why Romans 10:9 and John 3:16 speak of belief in the heart. A young Christian may stray off the righteous path, while a more experienced Christian may do so very infrequently. But in both cases, I don't think their salvation is in jeopardy. Anyway, let me know your thoughts when you have a chance on how www.gotquestions.org answered this question: Question: "Does Hebrews 10:26 mean that a believer can lose salvation?" Answer: “For if we are willfully sinning after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice concerning sins.” Hebrews 10:26-29 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, right up to the edge of saving belief, who hear and understand the Gospel, and are on the verge of saving faith, but then reject what they have learned and turn away. These are people who are perhaps even aware of their sin and even make a profession of faith. But rather than going on to spiritual maturity, their interest in Christ begins to diminish, the things of the world have more attraction to them rather than less, and eventually they lose all desire for the things of God and they turn away. The Lord illustrated these types of people in the second and third soils of Matthew 13:1-9, 18-23. These are those who “receive with joy” the things of the Lord, but who are drawn away by the cares of the world or turned off by difficulties they encounter because of Christ. “Willful sinning” in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. To know God’s way, to hear it preached, to study it, to count oneself among the faithful, and then to turn away is to become apostate. Sinning willfully carries with it the idea of sinning continually and deliberately. Such a person does not sin because of ignorance, nor is he carried away by momentary temptations he is too weak to resist. The willful sinner sins because of an established way of thinking and acting which he has no desire to give up. The true believer, on the other hand, is one who lapses into sin and loses temporary fellowship with God. But he will eventually come back to God in repentance because his heavenly Father will continually woo and convict him until he can’t stay away any longer. The true apostate will continue to sin, deliberately, willingly and with abandon. John tells us that “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9). Apostates have knowledge, but no application of that knowledge. They can be found in the presence of the light of Christ, mostly in the church, among God’s people. Judas Iscariot is the perfect example—he had knowledge but he lacked true faith. No other rejector of the truth had more or better exposure to the love and grace of God than Judas. He was part of Jesus’ inner circle of disciples, eating, sleeping, and traveling with Him for years. He saw the miracles and heard the words of God from Jesus’ very lips, from the best preacher the world has ever known, and yet he not only turned away but was instrumental in the plot to kill Jesus. Having turned his back on the truth, and with full knowledge choosing to willfully and continually sin, the apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice is rejected, then all hope of salvation is gone. To turn away willfully from this sacrifice leaves no sacrifice; it leaves only sin, the penalty for which is eternal death. This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving he never had genuine faith to begin with (1 John 2:19). |
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lordmonkeymouth 22-Nov-16, 20:04 |
-Good stuff. Can we define "sin" in clearer terms. I'm concerned. |
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lordmonkeymouth 22-Nov-16, 20:14 |
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saintinsanity 22-Nov-16, 20:16 |
[1855] Mortal Sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God… by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist, though it offends and wounds it. [1861] Mortal sin… results in… the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell… [1862] One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or complete consent. [1863] Venial sin weakens charity… and… merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However, venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace, it is humanly reparable. “Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently, eternal happiness.” |
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lordmonkeymouth 22-Nov-16, 20:18 |
Ha! |
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andrew983 22-Nov-16, 20:18 |
2 Peter 2:20-22 "Third, the real question is this: What does Peter warn his readers will happen if they fall? Most commentators suggest that eternal judgment - hell - is in view. They point to verses 21 and 22 However, a careful reading of those verses suggest that temporal judgment, not hell, is in view. Notice what isn't said. Peter makes no reference to hell, the lake of fire, unending suffering, or any similar term or phrase. He instead says that it would be better for a believer never to know the way of righteousness than to have known it and then turn away in a licentious lifestyle. It is a grievous mistake to understand those words to mean hell. If they do, Peter is teaching that believers can lose their salvation - something he did not believe (cf. Luke 10:20; John 13:10; Acts 10:43-48; 11:16-18; 15:7-11; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 2 Peter 1:9; 3:8-13). Rather, Peter is simply saying that if a believer grovels in a life of sin, his life here and now will be worse than if he had never become a Christian. While both non-Christians and Christians experience the terrible consequences of their sins here and now, those consequences are even worse for believers because we are God's children with the Holy Spirit living within us. Certainly conviction of sin is greater. So, too, new consequences for our sins come on the scene (e.g., rebuke by a Christian friend, church discipline). And, the more a believer resists God's discipline, the more He turns up the heat. That is not necessarily true for a non-Christian." faithalone.org <<I can testify that God does indeed "turn up the heat," though I think it's not to punish us but to bring us back to Him. It's very easy to forget about God (at least for me but I suspect many others) when everything in life is going great. But when we face an unexpected challenge or calamity, the believer will return to God. Sometimes that's what it takes. May seem harsh, but suffering for months or even years is a very short amount of time when compared to eternity. Let me quote the verses from 2 Peter because I have another view... "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." What's interesting to me from these verses is Peter refers to "knowledge" and knowing the way of righteousness but he doesn't reference belief or acceptance of that knowledge. To know something is not necessarily the same as believing or accepting it. One can know something and reject it. So I'm not even sure Peter is referring to believers in those verses. Anyway, these are just my thoughts and quotes from websites I agree with. I realize unconditional salvation vs. conditional salvation is a debate within the church that likely won't be resolved anytime soon (if ever.) But I do feel there are many verses that indicate unconditional salvation, for me, is the correct view. That, of course, assumes a person is saved to begin with.>> |
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From the Catechism So, Ted Bundy's terrible sin, if repented and confessed to God, would gain His forgiveness, and not exclude him from Christ's Kingdom. Of course, it would have to be genuine repentance, and only God himself would know if it was so. |
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saintinsanity 22-Nov-16, 20:27 |
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andrew983 22-Nov-16, 20:32 |
@shirlmygirl Whenever the pastor brought this up, I'd wonder, "Is it really that easy? Could someone who had never heard of Jesus Christ come to salvation so quickly?" It took me a long time. Though I always believed in God (since childhood,) I didn't accept the divinity of Jesus Christ until a few years ago and that was only after I read the Holy Bible, started attending church again and did my own investigation into whether believing in the divinity of Christ could be justified. It amazes me that it could happen so quickly for other people, but maybe my heart was much more hardened than theirs. |
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andrew983 22-Nov-16, 20:35 |
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