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mo-oneandmore 24-Jul-19, 10:22 |
 Deleted by mo-oneandmore on 24-Jul-19, 10:24.
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Wrong! If War, disrespect, deception, prejudice, miss-trust, miss justice and hate, etc were eliminated Man would quickly advance at least 10 x 10. Your math is erred, three. Mo |
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Duke And soon after the Vietnam war ended, Vietnam marched on Cambodia to "take care of business" against the Khmer Rouge regime, while US chestnuts screamed "Commie aggression" and then honorably marched out and returned the country to it's people. I don't believe that Vietnam has participated in War since then. Am I correct? |
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Kinda yes... This war lasted a month of actual fighting (17 February - 16 March, 1979). However, there remained contentious points that were not finally resolved until 20 years later. Among other things they involved a small slice of Vietnam territory being made over to China. Here's a thing about that war. China advised the US ahead of time, and the Soviet Union, of its intent, the means and the aim. I don't reckon China had too much concern about the American attitude, but there was every reason to worry about Soviet Union coming in on the side of Vietnam. For that reason, China was quite explicit about the parameters of their punitive operation, and stuck by their word. Though sympathetic to Vietnam, the Soviets figured that the circumstances didn't quite justify doing more than to supply materiel. Apart from that, Vietnam has been remarkably peaceable since 1975, and open to travellers. My wife visited the country ten years ago for several weeks. |
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Yea, but I've heard that some of our surviving solders decided to stay --- Sylvester Stallone for example. Right-wrong? |
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:-D Given that in no way did Vietnam deserve to be attacked by the US - a fact recognised by a large proportion of US Americans as unlawful not only in US domestic law, but also in International Law - Vietnam was under no obligation to return anyone. How nicely did the US ask? Also given the circumstances of the conflict, and wild terrain - let alone divers covert operations - that some soldiers and airmen should have disappeared ought to have occasioned no surprise at all. There was no reason whatever to presume that US military personnel who vanished were held in Vietnamese custody. It was not unreasonable for the US politely to ask after them, and even to request some kind of search. After all, not all airmen would have escaped death or injury serious enough to lead to death, as the US knew full well. No harm in asking. US bombing and embargoes can't have made medical facilities all that 'state of the art', eh? So if US personnel died of injuries they might have survived in US care, can not reasonably be blamed on the Vietnamese. So why did the US not take the Vietnamese authorities at their word? There was no reason whatever for them to hold US POWs once the war had ended. The whole 'return, alive or dead, missing soldiers and airmen' thing was simply a stick to beat Vietnam with: no more no less. By the way, I quite liked the first Rambo movie, give or take Rambo's whining at the end (however understandable: it was after all a personal perspective, especially if we accept that John Rambo is supposed to have acted at all times in Vietnam in an upright and honourable manner, in the best traditions of the professional soldier). Actually I had already read the novel before the movie came out - OK, but not great. The other movies were trash, pretty much. |
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archduke_piccolo We had active duty stations untill 1994. I realize that my words could be misconstrued. Not that you misconstrued or anything. I just felt the need to clarify. |
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@apatzer. Just by the way, though, I'll bet there are Vietnamese still living who are wonder whatever happened to their family members and loved ones who disappeared between 1964 and 1975, never to be found. Has Vietnam ever asked the US to account for them? Has the US ever offered? In the give or take of international affairs, US politicians ought to learn (a) it doesn't go 'You give; we take'; and (b) that is what US global policy looks like, even to the uninvolved. |
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besides And as the Globe warms up to critical,the Hatred will also. By the way the Hominids featured in this video was Probably Australopithecus Afarenses. They lived approx 3-4-Million years ago. |
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The first movie was good, |
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The 'last' Rambo movie... You know, for a very long time there seemed to me a lot of wishful thinking about Hollywood movies concerning US relations with the world outside. Unable to 'do it' in practice; the US 'did it' in movies. Nowadays one begins to wonder whether US politicians and policy-makers think they are heros in a movie or TV show. They sure seem to act like it. (I could make a similar comment about how policing within the US looks to the outside world. Mind you, it wasn't enough to deter my brother and some friends from taking a motorbike journey through (along) the Great Appalachian Valley last year.) |
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Living the movie dream |
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so was 'Voyager' Al: "For I dipt in to the future, far as human eye could see; Saw the vision of the world, and all the wonder that would and 'could' be." Alfred, Lord Tennyson |
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Context... www.youtube.com I sometimes wonder if maybe the VW was as traumatic to the US as it was to Vietnam. It could not have been, of course: the US was hardly affected. And yet... something remained. Whether it still remains is another question. |
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archduke_piccolo |
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The Bottom line Dick Cheney's War in Iraq was the same. A War Crime. A War against Humanity. I Love my Country.But i will not be blinded by Nationalism and Tribalism. I will speak out against such Evil. |
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Birgadecommander en.wikipedia.org Notice that all of this goes on and on, no matter which party is in power. |
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duke I live about 50 miles North of the Appellation Valley --- Small world, huh? |
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archduke... |
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No one knows... That is genocide, all because the United States was frightened by the political choices the Vietnamese people wished to make for themselves. That fear - that paranoia - persists to this day. |
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Rewriting History Oh, we won Vietnam? We didn't pull out in ignominious defeat? LOL. Look up "Battle of Van Tuong." We attacked with tanks, helicopters, and naval ships, but could make no headway whatsoever. The VC held their ground. How was that any kind of victory for the US? Because we lost only 45? What did we win at the Battle of la Drang? We lost Khe San altogether--no way to color that disaster a victory, Ace. The VC began shelling our base in January and kept it up until July. We couldn't land planes or helicopters to provide reinforcements for the first two months. We finally extracted our people in June. The VC won this one, and it was largely just a distraction to permit them to penetrate deeper into the south. While the North tactically lost the infamous "Tet Offensive," it was for them a major psychological victory, and a turning point for US attitudes towards the war. We captured "Hamburger Hill" on May 20th, 1969, and then withdrew. Brilliant military tactics--NOT! In 1972 the US lost Quang Tri, Hue, An Loc, and Kon Tum. How were those US victories? When Saigon fell, how was THAT a US victory? |
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US can make mistakes in wars. en.wikipedia.org LS and me have difference of opinion in losing or winning a war. IMHO, Iraqi war was a total disaster although US did not lose the war there. Obama just withdrew our US troops from there. McCain wanted to continue Bush policy of US military presence until total victory. Obama defeated warmonger McCain in 2008 presidential election. By withdrawing US troops from Iraq, would you like to say again that we lost the Iraqi war ? Did we lose any battle in Iraq ? I don't think so. As I said before, US won the cold war. Vietnam war was part of the conflict of cold war between the two political systems of Democracy and Totalism dictatorship. With the collapse of the USSR, US finally won the cold war. US lost nearly 60,000 troops in Vietnam who lost nearly 1 million troops. The loss of 60,000 troops is insignificant compared to Vietnam's 1 million troops loss. Don't forget that there are now 60,000 deaths from drug overdose in USA yearly. The outcome of the US troops withdrawal is good for Vietnam. Although it is still a communist by name, it no longer practices communism. Instead it embraces free market economy of Capitalism. During and after second world war, unlike Soviet Union US has no intention of occupying the lands that they conquer by intervention. WE just want to prevent them from the scourge of communism and their takeover. Under communism, over 20 million in USSR and 40 million died in former communism from starvation and killing themselves. If Ho Chi Minh is still alive today, his communist economy of centralized planning will surely fail. It is ludicrous to say that US lost the war because we withdrew the our troops from the positions that Vietnamese could not take over. French lost the war in Indochina. They surrendered at the battle of Dien Bien Phu. US troops did not surrender. LS, are you a vet ? How can I assess your credibility ? Chaz is a Vietnam Vet. He was at the battle of Khe Sanh. I read his book. Our troops fought bravely against the superior number of N. Vietnamese troops. They did not surrender and hold the ground. Although US did not lose the Iraqi war, it was a total failure. It destabilize the middle east. Millions of people are killed or displaced internally and externally as refugees. |
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wrong May God 'not-have' Mercy on their Souls. |
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stalhandske 27-Jul-19, 21:05 |
Ace In what way would a vet have more (or less) credibility in these matters than anyone else? |
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The real Truth |
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stalhandske 27-Jul-19, 21:21 |
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Precisely stalh |
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stalhandske 28-Jul-19, 03:15 |
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A little learning... Apart from that, one person's 'education' is another's 'propaganda.' Education might indeed go a long way towards - perhaps not so much solving the world's problems as to preventing their occurrence in the first place. But human beings have so far demonstrated their blinding brilliance, their decapitating sharpness, their infinite capacity to create for themselves, new, unforeseen problems. We are intelligent enough to be stupid, but nowhere near enough to be wise. By the way, questioning whether 'someone is a vet' in the course of debate or argument is an example of 'begging the question'. It might be relevant in a discussion of the real experience of combat in war, but as individual soldiers' experiences are unique to themselves, it is not a line to be pushed very far there, neither. I recall an Australian TV programme about the experience of Australian soldiers' experiences in Vietnam, and upon their return home. In a particular episode, a WW2 veteran took his son, just back from Vietnam, to the local Returned Services place (sort of a club). The other WW2 vets questioned the son about his experiences. After some time the WW2 vets dismissed what he had to say with scorn: 'That wasn't REAL war!' they said. You can imagine how the man and his boy felt. They were both devastated. I gather neither ever went back to that RSA hall. And maybe it would be too harsh to be overcritical of the other WW2 vets. What the boy experienced was completely alien to what the WW2 vets knew; and I dare say WW1 vets might have felt similarly about WW2, were it not that so many senior officers in the latter had been junior officers in the former. If Australian and US veterans of Vietnam, of Africa, or the Middle East found their experiences traumatic, how do you imagine the Vietnamese, Iraqi, Syrian, Yemeni, Afghanistan, Serbian, Libyan, Somalian, Central African people feel? All those countries have had experiences of war - much of it at US hands - that even US veterans themselves can, in all likelihood, scarcely imagine. No, I'm not a vet myself. But I have eyes and ears. I might not be able to imagine or feel, but I have eyes and ears. And there is a great deal around, despite the efforts of the Establishment to suppress it, to see and to hear. |
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