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 If you are saying that circumstances create more opportunity, then I have to ask you another question: Should we create equality of outcome so that equality of opportunity is consistent for all? |
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stalhandske 20-Aug-19, 22:22 |
I'm sorry, isityoustand, but that is a pure lie! Or a complete misunderstanding of fact. OK, he has the opportunity (I already indicated that), but that "opportunity" is miles smaller than the opportunity of the other guy from the other side of the city. To your question: < Should we create equality of outcome so that equality of opportunity is consistent for all? > Absolutely not, that's really obvious unless you just want to destroy the good ideas |
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stalhandske 20-Aug-19, 22:42 |
That is very well put! The obvious answer is yes. In Baltimore (which was our example) the guy from the rat-infested parts will have very few (=almost impossible, in practice) opportunities to generate the funds required. Whereas, his counterpart from the other side of the city will have a Dad (or a Mom), who pays for it all. Is this fair? Just asking. |
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If the child is competent and does well in school and is approved for attendance at a prestigious university then there are student loans available for that child and they have the opportunity to pay for themselves to go. |
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stalhandske 20-Aug-19, 23:02 |
Sure, and what is the success score of getting those loans/grants? |
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In the end, it is up to the individual whether or not they decide to go to higher education. In truth, in this day and age, higher education is mostly unnecessary as you can learn anything you want on the internet. |
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stalhandske 20-Aug-19, 23:15 |
That's one of the most idiotic comments I've read in a long time. Shows a big problem. |
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Name one thing I can't learn on the internet that I can learn in college. |
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stalhandske 20-Aug-19, 23:28 |
isityoustand Name one thing I can't learn on the internet that I can learn in college> I take that as a pure insult. An insult against human effort and humanity. Some more of that leads to ejection from this community. I simply won't have it. Make your choice. |
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I think you might be over-reacting. |
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Equality of opportunity. In France, it's even worse than in the US : 5% of the people who make high level studies have parents blue collar workers. Let's set aside the question of fairness. It means that there are talents which we (country, society...) do not exploit. You'll probably agree with me that many people in charge, in various offices, administrations, firms, are not that good. We select the top executive within 10% of the population. If we selected them within 100%, we would have better results. But I believe that equality is not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is, in my opinion, is solidarity. |
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stalhandske 20-Aug-19, 23:39 |
isityoustand I am not. This is my Club, and when I see idiots, I say so. I hope I don't need to repeat my point about the university system. If you can get "it all" from the Internet, please leave this club and save us from the embarrassment. |
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Honestly, I like Trump as president. But please, oh please, don't let it turn into another political dynasty. There is a reason the most talented and capable don't go into politics. |
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I hope I don't need to repeat my point about the university system. If you can get "it all" from the Internet, please leave this club and save us from the embarrassment." I suppose it would not be worth exploring the idea of free information versus paid institutional learning at the expense of being ejected from the club. I apologize for thinking of a thing that you do not agree with. |
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stalhandske 20-Aug-19, 23:46 |
You are wrong again. That paid information is paid for only in the USA. Here in the free world it is free. |
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Stal |
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learning by internet OK, all the information are available on the net. At school, you learn what to learn, and how to learn. This is not only a question of learning techniques (nonetheless important) but of state of mind. Example : We know that the social networks tend to put you in contact with people like you. If you look at videos on U tube, the algorithm will tend to propose you the same kind of videos, giving the same kind of information with similar points of view. |
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ptitroque Yes, youtube and algorithms will try to steer you in a particular direction. But when you are teaching yourself with purpose you only have to search the information you want, and you don't have to follow what the algorithm suggests. |
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ptitroque Like a hive mind? Interestingly enough, that's not unlike the institutions of higher learning in this country. Free exercise of opposing ideas is not generally allowed in most institutions here. Just sayin'. |
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stalhandske 21-Aug-19, 00:12 |
And, on what basis are you claiming that?? |
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@ thumper I do not know for USA, but for France, I partly agree with you. We could and should encourage it far more and the selection process should take in account, creativity, originality, so that our elites are not clone troopers. But it's not because something is not perfect that it has to be suppressed, we can improve it. |
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Thumper This is false. Totally false |
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stalhandske 21-Aug-19, 14:33 |
“"Free exercise of opposing ideas is not generally allowed in most institutions here” This is false. Totally false > I already asked for the evidence for that, which I still hope we will get. |
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Things you learn at university How to work collaboratively with a diverse group How to work in a science lab Most importantly It's about exploring who you are and learning things that might not directly relate to a particular field. College is about taking classes that might not have anything to do with work. Art history is a great class—even if you aren't going to work in a museum. Algebra should be taken by all students—even though you probably won't need it (most humans get by just fine without a solid math background). So really, it is about becoming more mature as a human. It's about leveling up in the human race—and that is something that is difficult to do online. |
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stalhandske 21-Aug-19, 15:00 |
University Universities are very different. In some cases/areas they are more like schools teaching you the skills required for a profession. In other cases, they teach stuff that is not immediately meant to be practised. In all great universities the teaching is a composite of these two extremes. Moreover, and what is truly important, in universities you are taught by personnel who are active researchers themselves. In the world of today, it is true that you can learn quite a lot from the Internet. In the past (and now, too) you can also learn a lot from books. But then you have no guidance of where to look, of what to be critical about. And no objective testing of your accomplishments and skills. |
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stalhandske 21-Aug-19, 15:15 |
“"Free exercise of opposing ideas is not generally allowed in most institutions here” This is false. Totally false > I already asked for the evidence for that, which I still hope we will get. My hopes are failing............ |
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