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softaire 28-Jan-22, 07:47	Is the second American Civil War nearing its conclusion? The truth is that the Second American Civil War is...almost over. Unlike the first one, the Democrats appear to be a near lock to win. Leftists, through a combination of brilliant projectionist strategy and callously evil use of their political opponents' naïveté, decency, and tolerance, have transformed America's institutions. They have weaponized them and used them against their less aggressive fellow citizens. In the process, they have transformed Americans, their beliefs and expectations, too. Much like the Chinese Communist Party, they own nearly all the levers of influence and power, exercising an iron grip on the education establishment, the mass media, Big Tech, Wall Street, corporate boardrooms, the health care industry, and Hollywood — and now the CIA, FBI, Defense Department, and ironically named Department of Justice (DOJ). This in addition to effectively controlling all three branches of the U.S. government. This is what I have been saying that has been happening in the country since the late 1950's when Khrushchev said they would conquer the country using our own Democracy. Much more on this at the link: www.americanthinker.com
stalhandske 28-Jan-22, 08:07	Softaire That's a very sad view and interpretation. Parts of it I can understand, but the comparisons with Chinese communism or Khrustchev's USSR are pure partisan rhetoric. What I can understand is the push by the American left towards a more liberal/democratic society with examples from Western Europe (perhaps especially the Nordic countries), but certainly not built on principles of the communism in China or the former USSR. I understand it because it is in the nature of conservatism to feel most changes from the old system to be scaring. But I can assure you that the goal is to make USA a more friendly country for all its citizens, a country where all citizens have the same basic opportunities to learn and to develop.
mo-oneandmore 28-Jan-22, 09:53	Softee That's a quality copy-paste, soft, but I'm accustomed to that from you. The truth is, for your information (honey); is that your story ilink s packed full of right wing lies and gross exaggerations. Is that the type of "news" garbage you and your kind read? Hm-mm? No wonder y'all act like you/re on Mars.
softaire 28-Jan-22, 10:00	Mo Of course it was copy-paste. It was copied exactly from the link I posted. I see by your condescending post that you didn't read the article. I was hoping that someone would read the article and come up with some good comments about it, either pro or con. In a discussion forum, you are expected to discuss the issues. You aren't able to do that so instead you attack the person who brings you the information to discuss. When you say "... your story ilink s packed full of right wing lies and gross exaggerations." do you have any reasons for saying that? Don't you think that others would like to see how you come up with that brilliant observation?
stalhandske 28-Jan-22, 10:11	Softaire <I see by your condescending post that you didn't read the article.> I did read it, and I commented, but - as so often - you chose to ignore my points.
softaire 28-Jan-22, 10:13	Stalh I was just going out the door when I saw Mo's comments. You comments require more a thoughtful answer... later.
dmaestro 28-Jan-22, 10:53	www.latimes.com I have said we are basically different for a long time when it wasn’t mainstream yet and later too different after it became obvious. We just are. While what I call the “wellstone effect” www.minnpost.com shows the problems with far leftist politics. But that’s nothing compared with Trumpism and J6 and the McCarthyism adopted by MAGA land who abuse power to get their way while pointing fingers at a smaller left. We are so different we can’t put America back together again and many will always feel they live under tyranny as extremes grow. Time to accept that reality. We are at war.
thumper 28-Jan-22, 11:02	Softie You know that Stål needs to be answered first, and quickly. Conservative thinkers are also required to cite 'accepted' source data and 'accepted' empirical evidence. Leftists aren't held to such standards of course. You know the rules so adhere to them and don't make me disappointed in you.
mo-oneandmore 28-Jan-22, 12:08	Deleted by mo-oneandmore on 28-Jan-22, 12:11.
mo-oneandmore 28-Jan-22, 12:10	Softee Your direct question to me: When you say "... your story ilink s packed full of right wing lies and gross exaggerations." do you have any reasons for saying that? Don't you think that others would like to see how you come up with that brilliant observation?" A simple enough question to answer, softee. All ya need to do is use your brains when you read your link (like Stahl and I did), instead of copy pasting something (like you did) and not reading rhe rest of it before you ran out the door again (like you probably did).
softaire 28-Jan-22, 14:14	Stalh I'll take Thumper's advice and answer you quickly so that you don't get mad again and leave this club too. I don't know that I'll get to an "accepted source" however, so do what you will. I can accept a push from the Left towards a "more liberal/democratic society" also. I can accept reasonable discussions and reasonable pros or cons about the proposed means of getting there. But that is NOT what we are seeing from the "Left" these days. The Democrat party is driven by the Far-Left whose extreme ideas will destroy the country. (IMHO) The article I posted mentioned several of the ideas that are being pushed by the Far Left. This is probably not an "approved source" but I happen to think it a truthful article. It fits in well with my statement that aligns with the bold statement and goal by Khrushchev. It's not "pure partisan rhetoric". I would think that you can see that many of the policies from the article are harmful to this country. They would be harmful to yours. How do you see illegal immigration or defunding the police or emptying the jails or not prosecuting crime or reducing the energy industry as being helpful?
stalhandske 28-Jan-22, 21:42	Softaire Thanks for replying. I have explained before why I left the NG club, but both Thumper and yourself seem to forget that. <The article I posted mentioned several of the ideas that are being pushed by the Far Left. This is probably not an "approved source" but I happen to think it a truthful article. It fits in well with my statement that aligns with the bold statement and goal by Khrushchev. It's not "pure partisan rhetoric". > I already replied that I understand how and why those 'ideas' are bad. When expressed the way you did. For example EVERYBODY agrees that illegal immigration is bad and should be prevented (and corrected). The question is about the METHODS, and those must be negotiable. And Bruce, when comparisons are made with communist China and/or communist USSR, but when an appropriate comparison with - say - the Nordic countries is left out, the result IS pure partisan rhetoric. I understand that putting it that way might bring the author more (angry) followers, but do you really think it is correct to gain followers based on a lie? I think you understand what I am saying, and note that I have noticed numerous times the same tactic among 'the left'. All I am looking for is a resonable debate among the politicians, because that's the ONLY way to solve these problems - even though it may not be the best way to get votes!
pawntificator 28-Jan-22, 23:13	The second war is over already? We ain't even started shootin' yet. Gall dang it.
thumper 28-Jan-22, 23:44	It's pretty sad when one side thinks they're in a full-on war and the other side hasn't even started fighting yet.
stalhandske 29-Jan-22, 00:16	It is infinitely more sad to have that real war.
softaire 29-Jan-22, 06:44	Stalh You have not mentioned whether or not you think that the policies I (and the article) mention that the Far-Left (Democrat administration currently in power) have implemented are harmful or not to the country. The article mentions specific areas and policies that I say are very harmful to the country. Whether or not they are similar to Communism is not really important. The point I'm making is that they are harmful to this country. I was wondering if you thought so also. My point is also that these policies are NOT "reasonable". They are so far left that they resemble an autocratic dictatorship where the government controls most everything and the people have lost most of their personal freedoms, especially when it is opposite to the wishes of the government. Your "That's a very sad view and interpretation." is exactly right on the money. It is a very sad view and very maddening. I hate to see the country being destroyed (even if those policies were well intentioned, which I don't). There have been many examples posted of the far-left saying and supporting these policies. This administration has implemented them. Your wish that we meet in the middle and discuss "reasonably" is laudable, but unlikely. DM is correct once again that we are too different and most of the public does not see these policies as reasonable. I'm just wondering if YOU see the policies mentioned, that are now implemented by the Left, as harmful or not.
stalhandske 29-Jan-22, 08:32	<The article mentions specific areas and policies that I say are very harmful to the country. Whether or not they are similar to Communism is not really important. The point I'm making is that they are harmful to this country. I was wondering if you thought so also.> I thought I answered that. Those specific complaints you had al sounded very bad indeed, but those were your description of them, and I am not convinced that even the far left would share those descriptions. But ths point is that each case should be discussed separately. My point about bringing in communism, China and the USSR is not only false, but also just angers the opponent (and quite rightly so), which does not helpin trying to start a dialogue.
dmaestro 29-Jan-22, 09:46	The problem with answering Softaire’s simplistic, out of context and one sided Mccarthyist claims once more is that it is equivalent to joining a discussion about when you stopped beating your spouse. And as the conservatives mock a request for more solid reliable sources behind extreme claims we can’t get anywhere. I have no doubt now they all believe that BS is true and now that they are unwilling to question it. Political power is what matters here now not fact—and for starters you see a majority of them think Trump won and they just don’t care he really never won majority popular support. Nothing will change and where they gain power Dems should beware.
dmaestro 29-Jan-22, 09:52	Deleted by dmaestro on 29-Jan-22, 09:53.
softaire 29-Jan-22, 10:12	Here is one general area that should be discussed as Stalh requests. Will either of you two try to explain how any of the following Democrat approved policies is helpful to the country: defund the police, disband the police, empty prisons and end prisons, no cash bail requirements, prosecutors deciding to NOT prosecute crimes, allow vagrancy, homeless, and pooping & peeing in public places, allow shoplifting on anything up to $950 value. I'm looking for your reasoning on why and how this is beneficial to America. As you know, by now, crime is spiking and we are seeing a huge surge in violent crimes since Biden took office. These are the policies that the Far left advocate for and have implemented, so the downsides are very clear. What are the upsides?
thumper 29-Jan-22, 10:38	Softie You make a very good case that the prog socialists have all but won their decades long war against America and conservatives. On paper it looks like almost a done deal. They believe so. They've made all the right moves and quietly taken over all the right institutions of power and influence. The problem for them is their lack of numbers. Also, the quality of their 'army' is quite low and their attrition rate, once it becomes open conflict, will be unsustainable.
dmaestro 29-Jan-22, 13:59	Softaire Without facts discussion goes nowhere. Conservatives are reactionary, simplistic, and addicted to a correlation means causation and false equivalency fallacies. We can’t get passed that. Take “defund the police”. Outside of some radicals what many of us meant was focus resources on better trained police who are community focused and put more efforts into crime prevention not just arresting people based on bias. Floyd would be alive today if we had better police. Defunding refers to not paying for the kind of sick and reactive policing that targets the less fortunate. We need police supported by all the good citizens in a community not an occupyi There is just no point in discussing complex social concepts with conservatives who think in bumper sticker and slogan mentality. You can’t understand them sad to say and it’s so basic to the way you think that can’t change.
softaire 29-Jan-22, 14:28	So, rather than telling us how defunding the police helps America, you switch to telling us that conservatives are bad. Maybe Stalhandske can do better. You try to say that defunding the police really means change police training tactics but that is NOT what it means at all. Changing police training has nothing to do with defunding or disbanding the police. Changing and defunding are not even similar. Maybe Stalhandske will see through your subterfuge. Floyd would be alive today (possibly) if he hadn't overdosed on drugs and if he hadn't resisted lawful police orders. and we need police supported by all the good citizens not an occupyi... what does that even mean?
thumper 29-Jan-22, 14:36	DM Conservatives aren't the ones with the green hair, nose rings and massive ear plugs screaming prog socialist slogans and profanities in people's faces as they demand their college bill for the Gender Studies degree be paid for by the very people they're screaming insults and profanities at. I admit their hate is very real to them... to the point of consuming them. When asked about their beliefs they get a brief look of confused on their fact then start screaming the slogans and profanities louder. And you want them to arm up for combat?
stalhandske 29-Jan-22, 20:29	Softaire <Will either of you two try to explain how any of the following Democrat approved policies is helpful to the country:> This is extremely difficult for the reasons I already alluded to. Each of the cases you list is in itself a complicated issue. Your descriptions of each problem are already in themselves biased the way you wrote them down. By this you should understand that I am not accusing you of anything, only saying that it is not possible to take an objective stand when issues like that are presented in a biased way and without context. <defund the police, disband the police, empty prisons and end prisons, no cash bail requirements, prosecutors deciding to NOT prosecute crimes, allow vagrancy, homeless, and pooping & peeing in public places, allow shoplifting on anything up to $950 value. I'm looking for your reasoning on why and how this is beneficial to America.> As written, none of this is good for America. <As you know, by now, crime is spiking and we are seeing a huge surge in violent crimes since Biden took office.> Really? Do you have any dependable data on this. I find it amazing that such a change could possibly have happened within one year.
dmaestro 30-Jan-22, 08:35	www.yahoo.com I see no reason to waste time Lon useless discussions with those who believe this nonsense. In fact far too much effort has been wasted seeking some agreement even after it became evident we would never get past such conspiracy theories and all discussions have done is harden suc. beliefs. That effort in retrospect would have been better placed in accepting the divisions have grown and cannot and will not be bridged at least as long as those over 35 run the show. Which analysis of polls makes clear. In the old days I would have responded in more detail to such claims and Softaire’s sincere desire to discuss them. But it’s always Groundhog Day. Now I stick with the basic truth—it’s far too complex to discuss these issues in detail given no agreement on basic facts and it’s just not going to get anywhere or change any perspective. You can find adequate responses on the web which will just be ignored. Patience is beyond exhausted, righties, and surely you have noticed the change in tone in the country. So I’m just not going to bother wasting time anymore. The critical issue is how this unhappy marriage, now of convenience, can be dissolved without excess violence, not the fantasy such discussions will solve anything—experience shows they can’t. Live your illusion and we will just see what fate has in store—it’s beyond any of us now.
dmaestro 30-Jan-22, 09:15	Suffice it to say as a reply that decades of culture war have destroyed social cohesion www.i.com in the USA and that not one specific issue is the root cause of why we are too different or why we see America breaking apart. Nor will discussions on race, crime, economics and science resolve that the rest is just synptomatic to the fact that the decline in social cohesion reached a tipping point and as a result and as polls/studies show we are too different now. Not that discussing the decline in social cohesion will get anywhere either but at least focusing on root causes would illustrate why we are too different. Other issues are just weaponized due to lack of social cohesion. And while we have our own opinions I see what conservatives are doing with their McCarthyist culture war as well as a small group of leftist radical as the nail in the coffin of restoring social cohesion.
dmaestro 30-Jan-22, 09:16	www.psychologytoday.com Better link explaining concept.
softaire 30-Jan-22, 10:45	Stalh "As written, none of this is good for America." Thank you. That is a start. Taken as a group, I listed several Democrat policies that are crime related. If it is too difficult to discuss them as a group, you could certainly choose any one of them to discuss it. I wanted to see if either YOU or DM could tell me why the Democrats would favor such policies. "As you know, by now, crime is spiking and we are seeing a huge surge in violent crimes since Biden took office.> Really? Do you have any dependable data on this. I find it amazing that such a change could possibly have happened within one year." .............................................. I find it amazing that you have not seen the statistics on this. You and DM are the statistics men. You can not possibly doubt this and to plead ignorance is simply dumbfounding. Ask DM if this is true or not.
dmaestro 30-Jan-22, 12:46	Softaire Your arguments are hased on broad simplistic generalizations and confuse correlation with causation. www.pbs.org. Those of us who analyze such things understand that failing social cohesion in a time of partisan hostility, growing wealth gaps, a disruptive pandemic and belief the system is rigged is a root cause, not that Democrats are in charge. So while you see the Dems and Biden as causative that’s actually a logical fallacy. Neither party has the magic bullet.
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