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darrenlobo 21-Mar-21, 08:48	Principled Nonvoting: The Beginning of Disengaging From the State Please read my article & discuss. theinternationallibertarian.blogspot.com Here's an excerpt: [There] is the perception, that voting equates to freedom. The reality is that nothing could be further from the truth. The fact that we are allowed to choose our dictators doesn’t make us any freer. It merely gives voters the feeling of power and the illusion of control. All the while they are being manipulated into supporting a government that implements policies detrimental to their well being. What better way is there to get people to follow the law and pay taxes than to convince them that these things are their will? What better way is there to get people to tolerate the government’s evils than by convincing them that the situation is temporary and that they can change the government at the next election? What better way is there to get people to respect elected officials than to convince them that they, the people, chose these scoundrels to represent them? (A mandate, it’s called.) None of these things are true, but the fraud works. Democracy is held to be the best form of government yet devised. The question is best for whom? Certainly not the people. It does work best for the ruling elites who can hide their evil plans behind a smiling democratic facade. The formula is to give people just enough freedom to feel free but not so much that the government loses control of them.
inhis_service 21-Mar-21, 09:16	More Bang For The Buck! Holy Moly! Sure has been quiet around here for too long. I thinks we have a new member who is ready to ROCK THE CASBAH. Hmm, leg me look this over a bit, and I will be getting back to you before long. Have a great day. Club members, please, join the discussion.
darrenlobo 21-Mar-21, 13:16	Thanks In his service Your reply gives me hope that we can have productive discussions here
inhis_service 21-Mar-21, 14:54	@ Darrenlobo This post offers several salient points for discussion because nearly every one of them is a portrayal of an "unreality" (The idea that the unchanging and unaccountable Government which is taking care of the social needs of our society is the direct result of the 'choices' we make in each Election. And all of the other points which Darrenlobo - aka DL - makes in his OP. Each and every one of DN's points are true and accurate as they can be save one which I want to focus on in this post. America is not a "Democracy". DN is leaving out one vitally important element from his OP. Namely, that America is supposed to be a Constitutional Representative Republic. I submit that losing sight of the rights and protections offered in the Bill of Rights and bringing to mind the initial premises for which we declared our independence, is what has been taken away from the American people who once were the "power base" - if you will - for the Federal Government. "We the People" have somehow been brushed aside from the "negotiations" being carried out by the Washington DC Establishment - aka Deep State Swamp. Would like to have more input from other Club members. DN, I'm afraid our Club presently does not have very many Leftists or Progressives with whom we may debate. Look forward to your response.
darrenlobo 21-Mar-21, 17:26	@inhis_service An interesting point but I don't see it as relevant. A Constitutional Representative Republic is still based on voting, a flawed mechanism. A great read on this is Lysander Spooner's "No Treason NO. VI. THE CONSTITUTION OF NO AUTHORITY" written in 1870 oll.libertyfund.org "...it is to be considered that, without his consent having even been asked a man finds himself environed by a government that he cannot resist; a government that forces him to pay money, render service, and forego the exercise of many of his natural rights, under peril of weighty punishments. He sees, too, that other men practise this tyranny over him by the use of the ballot. He sees further, that, if he will but use the ballot [8] himself, he has some chance of relieving himself from this tyranny of others, by subjecting them to his own. In short, he finds himself, without his consent, so situated that, if he use the ballot, he may become a master; if he does not use it, he must become a slave. And he has no other alternative than these two."
darrenlobo 21-Mar-21, 17:38	another thought on voting Voting and taxation are the attempt to replace voluntary market transactions for protective services with a compulsory mechanism. For that reason alone it fails, theft can't be the basis for a good or moral system. Here's more Spooner oll.libertyfund.org "All political power, as it is called, rests practically upon this matter of money. Any number of scoundrels, having money enough to start with, can establish themselves as a “government;” because, with money, they can hire soldiers, and with soldiers extort more money; and also compel general obedience to their will. It is with government, as Cæsar said it was in war, that money and soldiers mutually supported each other; that with money he could hire soldiers, and with soldiers extort money. So these villains, who call themselves governments, well understand that their power rests primarily upon money. With money they can hire soldiers, and with soldiers extort money. And, when their authority is denied, the first use they always make of money, is to hire soldiers to kill or subdue all who refuse them more money." Basically, voting the the "legitomizer" of taxation. Not in reality but in many people's heads. That's why it's so important to the power structure.
inhis_service 21-Mar-21, 18:46	DL These matters/ issues which you're proposing are so foreign to what I have been dealing with, and actually contrary to my understanding of history, I'm afraid, speaking honestly, that you're going to have to back up a little and explain to me where did the Founding Fathers go wrong? We are working from two entirely different sets of history books!
darrenlobo 22-Mar-21, 03:57	only 1 history Remember that the Founders fought the revolution with the slogan "no taxation without representation". Thomas Paine in Common Sense wrote: "OF THE ORIGIN AND DESIGN OF GOVERNMENT IN GENERAL. WITH CONCISE REMARKS ON THE ENGLISH CONSTITUTION "SOME writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections, the latter negatively by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher. "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer! Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built on the ruins of the bowers of paradise. For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform, and irresistibly obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver; but that not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his property to furnish means for the protection of the rest; and this he is induced to do by the same prudence which in every other case advises him out of two evils to choose the least." docs.google.com While I agree with the principle I think the Founders fell down on the application. We certainly need some governance IE law & security. What we don't need is a government that forces itself on us in the name of protecting us. Law & security have been provided privately in the past (for example Lex Mercatoria) & can be so provided again.
thumper 22-Mar-21, 10:56	Very interesting conversation. I too have some thoughts about this and may weigh in in a day or so.
inhis_service 22-Mar-21, 14:48	@Darrenlobo << While I agree with the principle I think the Founders fell down on the application. We certainly need some governance IE law & security. What we don't need is a government that forces itself on us in the name of protecting us. Law & security have been provided privately in the past (for example Lex Mercatoria) & can be so provided again. >> While the statements and ideas proposed by Thomas Paine are salient foundations upon which to find a remedy for excessive Government interference, the line/ link between "a government that forces itself on us in the name of protecting us" was originally much more conducive for "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." www.archives.gov Please, note especially the lines; "to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." It has been quite noticed by myself that so far in none of your posts, or in your bio page, have you made any mention to the Christian Faith or to Biblical Principles. This is not a trifle observation as as it has to be kept uttermost on our minds as we proceed in this dialogue about the subject of this thread. Our Founding Fathers were convinced of their righteous cause in rebelling against the King of England especially because of their beliefs in the Bible and the Kingdom of God as understood by their Christian World View. Any failure, weakness or "two evils to choose the least" (not sure exactly how to introduce this comment here) which America is now dealing with as regards these failures, weaknesses and evils, is a direct result of Anti Christian and Anti Biblical ideologies interjecting themselves into the Government originally established, I assert. The great evil in America as represented in the IRS and the Federal Reserve Bank did not appear in America until well after the deaths of America's Founding Fathers. With this as a preamble to your posts above, I propose we deal with the origins of these Anti Constitutional and illegal institutions first before we discuss doing away with the tax system. Eliminating the IRS is something your in favor of is it not?
darrenlobo 22-Mar-21, 16:47	End the Fed & the IRS with it! As to religion I'm with Ayn Rand in being an atheist. It's the lack of rationality that's the problem not a lack of faith. Obviously Jefferson believed in some kind of govt. What if people don't want one? Don't they have a right to a stateless society? 1. Voluntary Outlawry As a corollary to the proposition that all institutions must be subordinated to the law of equal freedom, we cannot choose but admit the right of the citizen to adopt a condition of voluntary outlawry. If every man has freedom to do all that he wills, provided he infringes not the equal freedom of any other man, then he is free to drop connection with the state — to relinquish its protection, and to refuse paying towards its support. It is self-evident that in so behaving he in no way trenches upon the liberty of others; for his position is a passive one; and whilst passive he cannot become an aggressor. It is equally self-evident that he cannot be compelled to continue one of a political corporation, without a breach of the moral law, seeing that citizenship involves payment of taxes; and the taking away of a man's property against his will is an infringement of his rights. Government being simply an agent employed in common by a number of individuals to secure to them certain advantages, the very nature of the connection implies that it is for each to say whether he will employ such an agent or not. If any one of them determines to ignore this mutual-safety confederation, nothing can be said except that he loses all claim to its good offices, and exposes himself to the danger of maltreatment — a thing he is quite at liberty to do if he likes. He cannot be coerced into political combination without a breach of the law of equal freedom; he can withdraw from it without committing any such breach; and he has therefore a right so to withdraw. mises.org
thumper 22-Mar-21, 17:16	Darren That sounds all well and good... to some. Don't forget, theory and reality are two different things. The nature of man dictates that he will take advantage of (and victimize) others if he has the chance, opportunity, position or advantage. I'm basically a conservative leaning libertarian by nature but if a group of anarchists moved into my area pushing that agenda, we would have... problems.
inhis_service 22-Mar-21, 17:56	Two Points For Expressing Contention With Your Assertions << It's the lack of rationality that's the problem not a lack of faith. >> 1. Thomas Jefferson himself wrote; "We hold these truths to be self evident." Simply because you have determined his premises "lack rationality" does not substantiate it to be so. Especially, when each and every signer of the Declaration Of Independence are documented to have like "Faith" as T Jefferson. << He cannot be coerced into political combination without a breach of the law of equal freedom; he can withdraw from it without committing any such breach; and he has therefore a right so to withdraw. >> 2. Evidently, you're suggesting such "indepently" minded Individuals can enjoy certain "benefits" available to the larger community where they might reside like clean water, Internet services, safe and clean side walks and roads, sewer services to name just a few things which modern men and women take for granted?
darrenlobo 23-Mar-21, 05:07	anarchists Hi thumper, anarchists of the libertarian stripe wouldn't push any agenda they would want to be left alone. It's your side that would push an agenda on them by trying to collect taxes, enforce zoning laws, drug laws, etc
darrenlobo 23-Mar-21, 05:14	Jefferson Even the faithful have some rationality. I agree with "We hold these truths to be self evident.". It's the creator part he got wrong. We derive our rights from our nature as human Beings. As to point 2, you point out the problem inherent in statism. When the govt controls so much, like infrastructure it creates a problem for those who want nothing to do with it. How about the govt stop proving the things you mention? Let the market do so. Then we can be free. Make America Free Again
inhis_service 23-Mar-21, 09:03	<< Even the faithful have some rationality. I agree with "We hold these truths to be self evident.". It's the creator part he got wrong. We derive our rights from our nature as human Beings. >> 1) How can you dare to be so caviler to say Jefferson (And the rest of the Founding Fathers were "wrong" about "the Creator" part) when what (American Independence!) they ACCOMPLISED - including our incredible history replete with over 150 years of a Christian Heritage - All of this was NOT BY HAPPENSTANCE, but by a direct appealing/ dependence to America's Christian Heritage. This can be historically documented. If you can point to any other people/ culture founded on "nature" it would be news to me, sir. Jettisoning/ ridding America of the Government, or leaving this system is within your Rights at the current time. So, maybe I do not understand what your point is exactly. << As to point 2, you point out the problem inherent in statism. When the govt controls so much, like infrastructure it creates a problem for those who want nothing to do with it. How about the govt stop proving the things you mention? Let the market do so. Then we can be free. Make America Free Again >> "Let the Gov't stop providing"? "Providing utilities and civic amenities" is a "problem"?! These proposals would, I'm at a loss to understand how such a thing is even in the realm of possibility, truthfully. How are we going to separate the market from the American Government? Today they're practically indestinguishable. Or are you planning on going frontier with a group of like minded Individuals? Not sure how anyone can do this while remaining in the same place where the "system" is everywhere.
darrenlobo 23-Mar-21, 17:50	How dare I? At least you're not claiming I'm a neo confederate like they did in another club that shall remain nameless. One could also argue that the enlightenment or age of reason lead to the ideas behind the American Revolution: "Enlightenment thinkers in Britain, in France and throughout Europe questioned traditional authority and embraced the notion that humanity could be improved through rational change. The Enlightenment produced numerous books, essays, inventions, scientific discoveries, laws, wars and revolutions. The American and French Revolutions were directly inspired by Enlightenment ideals and respectively marked the peak of its influence..." www.history.com My reference to "our nature as Human Beings" is a reference to the concept of natural rights. It applies universally. <<Jettisoning/ ridding America of the Government, or leaving this system is within your Rights at the current time.>> How are these things within my rights? I'd love to leave the system but it enforces payment of taxes & obedience. <<"Providing utilities and civic amenities" is a "problem"?! >> Yes not only do they do it badly but they use the power it gives them to control us. <<How are we going to separate the market from the American Government? Today they're practically indestinguishable. Or are you planning on going frontier with a group of like minded Individuals? Not sure how anyone can do this while remaining in the same place where the "system" is everywhere. >> The difficulty of implementing ones ideas has no bearing on their validity. Remember that might doesn't make right. An eye opening book is "The Voluntary City" www.independent.org I highly recommend it. History shows us that many things that people think can only be provided by the govt can & have been provided privately.
inhis_service 23-Mar-21, 19:09	Darrenlobo << An eye opening book is "The Voluntary City >> You're unable to convince me with your own logic/ understanding of some obscure piece of work which you believe in? If you're so sure of the premises they're presenting why can't you present their ideas to me in your own words? With all respect, these ideas/ revolutionary ideas for dealing with an oppressive Government system hasn't yet convinced me that what we have is completely irredeemable. Especially in light of the world's recent history as touches enemies of America and our Freedoms/ way of life. A way of life based on the premises that all Freedom is God given (A notion which is substantiated by the truth and valid corelation as expressed through the lives of devout Christians.) especially Christian Americans who believe in the American way of life. Merely by YOUR dismissal of Faith and Religion based on WHAT?, I should agree with you, and these strange ideas? Please, I'm going to require a little more convincing.
inhis_service 24-Mar-21, 09:11	Enemies Within America's Very Government Darrenlobo, While we are complete strangers and while we recognize that our freedoms are severely curtailed, we have come to an impasse finding common ground for proceeding with this dialogue apparently. The latest attack against America has this Corona Virus hoax which drove President Trump from the Presidency. Closely tied to the Corona Virus hoax is the rigged Presidential Election last Nov 3. Incredibly, the Democratic Deep State was sell this rigged Election via the Deep State owned Legacy Media. Along the way they had to censor and deplatform untold numbers of independent Alternative news websites from the Internet. Youtube, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Here is a recent video from an independent news source which I completely trust. I hope you would review it and give me your response to what is revealed. "3.23.21: When the ENEMY is exposed...they DIVERT your attention! We are WAKING UP!" DISTRACTIONS EVERYWHERE rumble.com
thumper 24-Mar-21, 11:21	Darren 23-Mar-21, 05:07 Don't call them my side. That's an inaccurate assumption.
inhis_service 24-Mar-21, 12:10	Thumper What are your views on the way our current president is reversing ALL of the previous president's polocies?
thumper 24-Mar-21, 12:43	iHs I haven't even wasted my time or energy looking into the specific machinations and actions of the Harris/Pelosi presidency. This action is not unexpected. I just assume that everything they can undo from the Trump years (good or bad in whoever's opinion) they will undo. Again, this is not unexpected. I spend my time in preperation for when their minions come for me and mine.
inhis_service 24-Mar-21, 12:53	Thumper << when their minions come for me and mine.>> IF Biden/ Harris and the rest of Progressive Socialist Globalists have their way, taking out last pockets of resistance such as you describe WILL BE the order of the day. History has shown this to be true in EVERY instance where they have successfully toppled Governments. Hope you can take out more of them than reside in your home. I'm going to join with the American Patriots who are actually activly opposing this as we speak.
thumper 24-Mar-21, 13:44	iHs If they can convince true SOCOM to do their deeds (which is very unlikely), we're toast. If it's standard LEO level we're on the better end of a 5-1 ratio. If they use their usual minions, we're looking at a 20-1 ratio or better.
darrenlobo 24-Mar-21, 17:38	Whose ideas? <<You're unable to convince me with your own logic/ understanding of some obscure piece of work which you believe in? If you're so sure of the premises they're presenting why can't you present their ideas to me in your own words?>> Well IHS I believe in being well read, knowing history & building on the ideas of thinkers that came before us. That's why I cite others' works so much. It's not about belief it's about having knowledge. I'm listening to your video as I write. Libertarians are also skeptical about the CCP virus. We wholeheartedly oppose lock downs, forced vaccinations, & vaccination passports. The part of the video where the guy stood up to the Gestapo was impressive. You want me to use my own words so I'll start another thread to discuss my views on that based on a presentation I gave. Please comment there too. As far as God goes it's not for me to prove a negative, that he doesn't exist. It's you to prove God's existence. BTW, I used to have faith but wised up.
inhis_service 24-Mar-21, 20:56	Thumper No disrespect, but both you and Darrenlobo make no mention of the obvious control exerted by the DNC and the American Lagacy Media. Their concerted effort to blatently censor information about the events leading up to the American Election; then afterwards, in censoring all of the mountains of evidence of Election Irregularities and illegal Election rule changes; not to mention that not one judge/ court actually adjudicated between the DNC and the American people who have eye witness testimony of the rigging - SCOTUS is in on this as well, is all that proves. And none of this even begins to address the massive Pandemic/ Vaccine hoax How is any of these things possible? Through the concerted effort to control the news and information Americans are getting. It's late, I'll try to provide more details tomorrow.
darrenlobo 25-Mar-21, 15:03	Agreed iHS Not to mention the Russian collusion hoax. The election was obviously stolen. BTW, I live near Philadelphia one of the centers of the election steal. These things make the case against voting even stronger. The root cause is the power the govt has to control the media through regulation, licensing & taxation. Without these things they'd be lost.
inhis_service 25-Mar-21, 15:10	Quick Correction Presently working on a more concise answer, but this one couldn't wait! << The root cause is the power the govt has to control the media through regulation, licensing & taxation. Without these things they'd be lost. >> When you say "gov't" I hope you're able to differentiate Democratic Party Gov't from what President Trump was attempting to do? And while, you're differentiating, please, include the Silicon Valley Social Media platforms which absolutely blocked everything President Trump was trying do in exposing the compromised Joe Biden.
darrenlobo 25-Mar-21, 18:02	No correction The govt is more about institutions than individuals. Sure the deep state doesn't like Trump & did all kinds of dastardly deeds to stop him. Reminds me of my days as a libertarian Party activist Rs & Ds did all kinds of low down things to suppress us. I'm shocked that they then turned on Trump that way (JK). One only needed to look at how they treat Ron Paul to know what Trump had coming. Oh wait it was Rs who turned on Ron Paul wasn't it? Let's just call it the Demopublican Party or the War Party. They're all birds of a feather. “Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.” ― James Madison
inhis_service 26-Mar-21, 09:05	@ Darrenlobo It's becoming more and more apparent that you're ready to return America back to 1776, and the ideals and propositions from that era. Are you suggesting that? That will have to include pretending that what has happened to American and those ideals and dreams can be simply ignored and we'll return to idealistic and utopian premises, W/O taking into the consideration that the toxic atmosphere we're living in can not be simply whisked away with what? Unless you're ready to get real about about the plank by plank construction of evil and Anti American forces which have transformed America into what it is now, you'll only be dreaming and hoping for something which has no possibility of ever coming to pass IMO
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