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 The end justifies the means !---------------- It is an interesting question but the answer is very simple. The answer is like a piece of cake for any law abiding citizens. We including me should not be hypocrites to answer that simple question. Me, as an American and a Veteran I am well qualified and will have no difficulty explaining this kind of dilemma. I was a soldier and our armed forces are responsible for the defense of our nation. Japanese did a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and our nation was dragged reluctantly into second world war. To cut the story short, the war ended when US dropped 2 atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killing 200,000 Japanese, majority of them immediately, others sooner or later. One may argue that it is unjustified for the US to use excessive force of nuclear bombs which also kill innocent civilians including including children. The analogy is similar. In the year 2000, There were over 500 BLM protests all over USA and the majority of the protests are violent with looting, burning, vandalism killings etc. Fake news media such as CNN, MSNBC claimed the protests were peaceful. That is baloney. They cannot fool the law abiding US citizens. Democrat party support BLM for their political gain without intervention for their wrong doings. People are fed up with the violent BLM protests. In Kenosha the buildings are still covered with cupboards to protect themselves from the violent protests. When law abiding adult citizens are impotent to do anything against the domestic terrorists, Kyle Rittenhouse, the kid had to take up arms and defend his law abiding citizens. |
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stalhandske 20-Nov-21, 07:04 |
Ace |
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Stalh To answer your question, the Prosecutor threw almost everything he could legally throw at Rittenhouse in terms of charges (hoping one at least would stick). That was either bias on his part or political aspirations. The evidence that came out in court clearly demonstrated to the jury that Rittenhouse only defended himself when attacked. The only "technical mistake" made was when the Prosecution got their own witness to state that Rittenhouse only shot him AFTER he pointed his own gun at Rittenhouse. The jury deliberated three days to make sure they covered & reviewed everything before deciding that Rittenhouse was innocent. The reviewed that a mob had been their trying to burn things and cause mayhem. They reviewed that the three people that Rittenhouse shot were ALL White and ALL convicted criminals. One was a pedophile who had been convicted of raping five or six boys ages 9 through 11. Another was a domestic abuser. They were seen on video of starting dumpster fires which Rittenhouse was putting out with a fire extinguisher. |
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stalhandske 20-Nov-21, 08:07 |
Softaire Your post goes a little further towards my question, but doesn't answer it either! My question is this: Am I right to assume that Rittenhouse could not be sentenced for manslaughter, or another alternative far less serious charge than 1st degree murder, because either 1) the prosecution failed to make such 'smaller' charges or 2) such charges were brought by the prosecutor, but dismissed by the Judge or 3) such charges were not made by the prosecutor, and whilst the Judge could have added them, he decided not to where I rely on the info I have received that the Jury can ONLY consider the charges given to them to consider. Softaire, do you see what I am getting at? I DON'T criticise the sentence one way or the other! It is done by a legitimate US court! All I am trying to do is to find out the details of the American Law system! |
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This was not about race although the media tried to make it about race. There are MSM talking heads who are still calling this as being about White Racism. I think that if a Black had been in Rittenhouses's position and gotten exonerated, I think they would have been happy with the outcome. But, Rittenhouse is White and therefore they need to be unhappy with the outcome? |
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Ace |
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stalhandske 20-Nov-21, 21:05 |
Thumper I see, thanks for that information. I understand the case much better now. This happened in America and must of course be assessed by American Law. Since American Law (at least in this state) allows a 17 year old to walk in the city armed with a fully visible semiautomatic assault rifle, there is little (according to US Law) to find him guilty of anything, as he clearly shot just to defend himself. I actually accept that! Although you know this, let me just say that I think allowing ANYONE even to possess such a gun reveals a fundamental flaw in the legislation of a developed country. OK, it is defended by old tradition of FREEDOM and the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution. But what is the gain? How has US society gained from this? The by far highest frequency of killing with firearms among nearly all countries. This killing of two persons would - once again - have been very unlikely under reasonable gun laws, just like the numerous school killings etc. |
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"You're not gonna to do f-ing shit" I believe he said as he charged to the attack. He was wrong. |
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stalhandske 20-Nov-21, 23:24 |
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pawntificator 21-Nov-21, 03:33 |
But this is all a distraction from the fact that US elections are compromised and Trump won bigly |
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pawntificator 21-Nov-21, 03:38 |
If we have a disagreement you cannot force me to accept your opinion with force. We have to have a discourse and you have to convince me with good arguments. But you can't force me. And you never will be able to. |
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stalhandske 21-Nov-21, 04:43 |
I never had any intention to do that. Only to try to inject some reason. |
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Stalh WHY do YOU think the three convicted felons were in Kenosha that night? Do YOU support the right of felons to riot, loot, and burn the businesses of a community? Do YOU support the right of citizens to protect their own property, businesses, and lives? |
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stalhandske 21-Nov-21, 07:32 |
softaire 1) to loot and make trouble 2) probably for the same reason 3) of course not! 4) that's the difficult question. I do support the owners and the citizens to protect their own. I don't support the idea of an outsider self-made sheriff. I think that is the job for the police. |
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stalhandske 21-Nov-21, 07:36 |
posted by zorro elsewhere:: Another voter fraud accusation blows up in Republicans' faces The mysterious case of Rosemarie Hartle's vote in the last presidential election, three years after her death, was trumpeted in November 2020 by the Nevada Republican Party and various prominent conservatives. From then-President Donald Trump on down, Republicans used stories about phony votes cast under the names of dead people as key evidence for their claim that Joe Biden's victory was marred by major fraud. The Hartle mystery is now solved. And it turns out that the fraud was committed by a Republican. Hartle was married to Las Vegas businessman Donald Kirk Hartle, a registered Republican. In November 2020, Hartle told Las Vegas television station 8 News Now (KLAS-TV) that he felt "disbelief" when he found out that a mail-in ballot was submitted in his late wife's name. It was "pretty sickening," he said at the time, adding that he didn't know how it could've happened. But Hartle had actually cast the phony ballot himself. On Tuesday, Hartle pleaded guilty to the crime of voting more than once in the same election. The judge, 8 News Now reported, said Hartle had pulled what seemed like a "cheap political stunt that kind of backfired and shows that our voting system actually works because you were ultimately caught." Indeed. And it isn't the first time something like this has happened. In November 2020, the Trump campaign highlighted a case in which a ballot was cast in the name of a long-dead Pennsylvania woman. Her son later pleaded guilty to casting that ballot for Trump, saying, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer, he had "listened to too much propaganda and made a stupid mistake |
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Softee 1: <<<WHY do YOU think the mob was in Kenosha that night?>>> I believe it was a demonstration against another cop killing that occurred about a week before. Are you against demonstrations, softee? 2: <<<WHY do YOU think the three convicted felons were in Kenosha that night?>>> I believe your mistaken, softee, There was one convicted felon among the three who were shot, and he was merely injured. 3: <<<Do YOU support the right of felons to riot, loot, and burn the businesses of a community?>>> Of course not --- and it is NOT a person's right(let alone a felon's right) to loot and burn businesses. Duh: Do you not understand the law or are you trying to bait us , softee? 4: <<<Do YOU support the right of citizens to protect their own property, businesses, and lives?>>> Protecting ones property is an inalienable right, softee, Of course we support that, but protecting ones property doesn't always justify murder, and vigilantism (Vigilante defined: A self appointed doer of justice who acts because law is inadequate is nonexistent and/or taking the law into one's own hands) IS against the law. Vigilantism is shoot em up Wild West stuff, softee. Do you want to return to the lawless Wild West or are you just ignorant? |
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Mo 1. The demonstrations were probably all aimed at police misconduct (or perceived police misconduct) across the country. I am NOT against peaceful demonstrations or peaceful protests. I am against riots, vandalism, arson, looting, and violence that injures or kills people. 2. The three people shot by Rittenhouse were all convicted felons. I'm including some snipets from various articles" The 36-year-old Joseph Rosenbaum was reported by local media to have been one of the two men killed in the Tuesday shooting initiated by teenager Kyle Rittenhouse during protests in Kenosha. Rosenbaum was identified as a registered sex offender, convicted in Arizona for “sexual conduct with a minor” , according to Wisconsin sex offender registry. Huber is seen on video swinging a skateboard at Rittenhouse before he was shot. He was known around Kenosha’s skateboarding community, and his girlfriend, Hannah Gittings, said skateboarding was his life. Huber served a pair of prison stints stemming from family conflict, including choking his brother in 2012. Finally, we have Gaige “Lefty” Grosskreutz. Grosskreutz has a pistol in his hand during the confrontation and was shot in the arm. Ironically, he was LARPing as a medic. He was a convicted felon (burglary) — some of the terror sympathizers are claiming his convictions for burglary was merely a misdemeanor, but that remains to be seen — and is not allowed to possess any weapon but appears to have been carrying a concealed semiautomatic pistol. He’s also a member of the anarchist group “People’s Revolution Movement.” 3. I think I understand basic rights, responsibilities, and laws. 4. "... but protecting ones property doesn't always justify murder, and vigilantism …." I agree with you here. Rittenhouse did not murder anyone and he was out doing vigilantism either. He was protecting the community from a riot, cleaning up the mess from previous rioting, putting out dumpster fires started by rioters, and finally protecting himself from attack by those rioters. (imho) |
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Soft I also need to question your source of information about Huber being a convict --- Sure he was a well known local skateboard personality and likely a talented athlete, but he did NOT have a gun, and he was with his girl friend so he was possibly, and according to his girl friend a true hero of the knight who had nothing more to defend his lady friend with than his skateboard. from a person who was waving an AR-15 around. Finally: As for my use of the word "murder" instead of "kill", I admit that I might have been pushing it a bit. Mo |
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Mo People’s Revolution Movement activist was in possession of handgun. Commentators on social media have accused a a 36-year-old from West Allis, Wisconsin man, who suffered a gunshot wound to the arm — agitating and provoking the 17 year old teen gunman accused of fatally shooting dead two men present during Tuesday night’s demonstrations in Kenosha. scallywagandvagabond.com upnorthnewswi.com. My other, previous post was just an accumulation of snipets from various articles. |
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Thumper And what would you do if you had nothing more than a skateboard and you found yourself facing a person who you had just witnessed shooting somebody with his AR-15? |
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Softee I'm saying that Rittenhouse was a confused child who had zero business being in a riot with an AR-15; and that he made one, possibly two horrendous miss judgements that resulted in deaths. |
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mo-oneandmore 21-Nov-21, 11:47 |
Deleted by mo-oneandmore on 21-Nov-21, 11:49.
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What about the Man who bought the gun for him --- the guy who taught him how to use it and had it loaded and ready to go when the time came --- conveniently and openly sitting in his basement where it wasn't supposed to be, huh? No gun owner of sound mind would do that, would would they thumper? And where in the F was HE when this came down, huh? Maybe drinking another beer and watching the news? Who knows, because the dead ain't talking, right? |
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<Was people's Revolution Movement activist involved in Kenosha shooting?> Yes they were scatter in the mob as was Antifa, stirring up anger, hate and violence to willing participants. Mo <A skate board could certainly be used as a lethal weapon, thump, even though that's not it's designed purpose,...> True, but if it's used as an offensive weapon it's very effective, devastating and lethal. If held by both trucks it serves as an excellent 'check weapon' (see hockey stick checks) and a shield. If swung by one truck the forward truck provides extra forward weight to magnify an edge impact easily capable of crushing a human skull. <And what would you do if you had nothing more than a skateboard and you found yourself facing a person who you had just witnessed shooting somebody with his AR-15?> I would likely not be in that situation in civilian life but honestly, if he was an actual bad guy and the encounter was ranged I would obviously prefer my AR-15 (.223), AR-10 (.308) or M1A (.308). If I could close to contact distance I would actually prefer a much faster edged weapon (a custom Randall or Ka-Bar) or believe it or not, a skateboard. Their CQB applications are impressive. The real advantage of a skateboard in CQB is it's benign appearance that masks it's devastating striking and shielding abilities. A tactical advantage (misdirection) and plausible deniability at it's finest. I've actually seen guys practicing fighting techniques with skateboards. |
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We didn't subscribe to the 'childproofing the house' philosophy, we went with the concept of teaching the child. We also had razor sharp knives in the cupboard... so? Rittenhouse obviously had good fundamental training about proper firearms etiquette, handling and safety. He followed that fundamental training even under high stress. I credit his parents for that. |
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Here's an idea about the skateboard matter thump --- Do ya think it's at all possible that the guy had a skateboard because he enjoyed riding skateboards or, for as strange as it may sound to you: Is it at all possible that he just might have never trained in the art of using his skateboard as a lethal defense weapon? Do you think that's at all possible, Thjump? |
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Mo My point is that most anything can be used as a lethal weapon if employed as such. Using a shield edge as a devastating striking weapon is thousands of years old. I'm not that big but have dented 16 ga stainless steel fighting helmets with a shield strike. A baseball bat's base function is to hit a baseball but it's no less devastating against someone's head. Same with a crow bar, steel pipe, chain... or skateboard. I don't know Huber's martial skill level but someone packing a skateboard to participate in a violent riot has obviously considered it's potential and application as a weapon. He actually used it to strike Rittenhouse twice in the head before Rittenhouse finally shot him from the ground as Huber stood over him and tried to strike him yet again. |
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Thump I also agree that there's 100s of items in my house that I could apply lethal force with --- none of which, other than my guns, are designed to do that., but to suggest that I need to beware when I approach a person riding or carrying a skateboard is akin to being afraid of the dark and my own shadow. My contention is that those types should not be allowed to carry guns in public And there are also those gun lover types who who seem to fondle and brag about their weapons who are too excited about the remote possibility that an opportunity to fight or kill might arise. My concern is that you might be approaching that most dangerous type, thump, because you project yourself as being highly engaged in finding ways to protect yourself in whatever environment you might be in --- just like cops who shouldn't have the job because they can only see potential wrong and have no time to smell the flowers of life which abound far more in America than violence. And as much as you might care to argue it, the above is NOT following the way of Jesus, you know |
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