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stalhandske 09-Nov-20, 21:01 |
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Origin of native Americans www.nationalgeographic.com www.newscientist.com I find your statement: "Don't forget that America is the land of migrants including native Indians who were Asians that crossed over the frozen land bridge of ice between Alaska and Siberia and settled down here thousands of years before Christopher Columbus discovered America" not entirely correct and truthful, and it borders on racism as well. There is another flaw in that statement as well: there is a lot of evidence that the august Christopher Columbus was in fact not the first Westerner to discover America. It seems that the Vikings were there first, long before Columbus. I can provide research to validate this theory, although not conclusively, then very strongly at the least. Please be careful of your statements. I advise you to research the evidence for such statements carefully before posting. I deliberately state the sentiments of others in a softer tone, so as not to agitate you. The fact is that I have sympathy with a lot of your opinions, and I respect your opinions. In South Africa we have a lot of problems that are very similar to the illegal immigration problem the USA face. I think that if you think independently from the propaganda and political agendas, we might in fact come up with viable solutions to our mutual problems. But you have to think for yourself, not regurgitate dogma by rote. The solution proposed by stalhandske above is fair, I think. |
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Illegal versus undocumented workers. The "illegal immigrant" issue is truly bizarre and paradoxical in USA. Starting from the approval and goodwill shown by the posts above mine when - in effect - we are talking about something ILLEGAL. --------------- I apologize for my error by saying illegal instead of undocumented workers. That is what Democrats want to label them. Let me give you a fictional story of stal as a Democrat politician. Stal is somewhat careless about the security of his house. He forgets to close the front door and leaves it open. I sneak into his house but stal catches me right away as soon as I enter into his house. At first, stal is unclear about my intentions. Most people will believe I am a burglar to steal something but for stal I am like a Santa Claus in December X-mas time with many presents for him because stal is a great politician at the local area. The survival of the politicians depend and need the votes of his supporters. Therefore, if I vote for him at the coming election, he will not take any punitive action against me for sneaking into his house. The analogy is similar. Joe Biden's first priority which he announced recently is to give citizenship to DACA children and later more of the undocumented people. If he can do like that, they will vote Biden and his Democrat party in the next US election and they can stay in power forever since there are millions of undocumented people who would like to come to USA. That is the name of the game. I apologize stal if you get upset by comparing you with corrupt Democrat politicians. I don't believe stal will ever do like that. This is just a fictional story for you. |
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Ace Trump LIES about illegal aliens voting. He LIED about losing California by 3 million undocumented votes. Trump is a liar through and through. You got to quit believing his bull. Earlier I said Mike Esper was fired for resisting Trump's desire to invoke the 1807 Insurrection Act. I said that only because I was putting two and two together--not because I had any evidence. It turns out that is EXACTLY why Trump fired Mr. Esper. www.theguardian.com Trump has zero respect for the rule of law, and never did. |
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stalhandske 10-Nov-20, 21:06 |
Ace |
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riaanieman said : Please be careful of your statements. I advise you to research the evidence for such statements carefully before posting. I deliberately state the sentiments of others in a softer tone, so as not to agitate you. youtu.be Who discovered America ? I will not dispute the fact that Vikings were seafarers and settled in Iceland and Greenland. Ventured west, they might have landed in Canada or America but there is no evidence that they settled in the newly discovered lands just like the white Afrikaners from Europe who settled in South Africa. They might also be annihilated by native Indians who were in Americas thousands of years before Vikings and or Columbus and could not establish settlements because of their fewer numbers compared to millions of Europeans who came here after Columbus. I will now conclude that Central Asians were the first to discover Americas. They crossed the frozen ice, land bridge between Alaska and Siberia and populated the Americas from north to south. I am amused by the statement that you don't want to agitate me. Rather, it makes me ticklish and I want to LOL. |
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Also, I must warn you to be careful how you use the description Afrikaners, especially towards white South Africans who speak Afrikaans. It can easily perceived as criticism and people will take offense, especially in the South African context where the name is politically loaded. |
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Settling South Africa South America was possibly colonized from the West rather than from the North. The South American civilizations became more advanced than those of North America, though agricultural technology did spread from the South across both continents. It just never made it back to Europe. So the notion either Asians or other Europeans beat Columbus to North America is a bit weak. I think the evidence for Viking conquests are slightly stronger, but however far they reached the obviously did not return with useful genetic resources. Seeds are small and easy to carry, and there is no evidence these made their way back to Europe--none of the extensive list of crops South American bioengineers developed. Maize, pumpkins, tomatoes, cassava, sweet potato, beans, quinoa, cacao, avocados, and pineapples. There is no evidence of the crops indigenous to Europe, Asia, or Africa ever made it to the Americas. Europeans were big on wheat, barley, and oats--all of which were entirely unknown to the Americas before Columbus. The first thing most settlers did was plant grain, their staple crop. We insisted the Indians surrender their nomadic lifestyle and extensive hunting grounds to grow crops. Many of the treaties we signed stipulated that if they abandoned their lands and competed against European farmers we would build grain mills for them--promises we very rarely ever kept (I'm not aware of ANY grain mills supplied to Native American tribes anywhere--instead we bought their grain for pitiful prices and rewarded them with disease and kidnapped their children to destroy their cultural heritage in Christian schools--a practice we continued up into the 1960s). South Africa wasn't settled by white colonists, it was APPROPRIATED by white colonists. Kind of the way Israel was "settled" by Jews shortly after 1945. |
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Once again I disagree with you, and this time so strongly I took days before I composed my answer. I am referring specifically to the remark in the second to last sentence. Your ignorance about the true history of South Africa is truly astonishing. I shall attempt to rectify your perceptions. First of all. When Jan van Riebeeck first arrived at the Cape of Good Hope (where the mother city of Cape Town now is), he BOUGHT a parcel of land from nomadic people called the Hottentotte. Unfortunately they had no concept of the value of land. At the time (should I repeat that phrase?) it was acceptable to pay for land with baubles, beads and mirrors. The Dutch settlers had the mandate to create a trading- and refreshment post, and therefore had to use the land around the Castle for grazing, production of crops and other resources. The Hottentotte and their cousins, the Khoi and San people, had no concept of individual ownership of land or livestock, and having never seen tame cattle they hunted this resource, which obviously led to confrontation. Later on, the Dutch people overflowed the castle and started to settle unoccupied land around the Castle. As time went by they settled further and further away from the Castle, and most often traded for or bought land for agriculture. Once again the indigenous people did not understand the concept of individual land ownership, and didn't realize what they were selling away willy nilly. As Southern Africa was such a vast empty space only periodically traveled by nomadic people, the Dutch settlers naturally moved to resources like water and arable land. They hardly ever encountered resistance at first. However, when resistance by the indigenous people were encountered, it was very fierce and the Dutch settlers lost cattle and sheep, their houses were burned and people lost their lives. This led to a rapid escalation of violence, but also to Dutch settlers who wanted to escape the violence as well as the illegal and brutal occupation of the Cape by the British, first around 1795 and then again about 10 years later. Slaves were not as rule taken from African indigenous people around the Cape of Good Hope- they were imported from places like Madagascar and Asia. However, the Dutch people readily freed them when times and public opnion changed, and let me add that not a single European person in the Cape ever owned even half the amount of slaves as the American aristocracy ever did. The Bantu people (Africans) arrived AFTER the Dutch settlers started to migrate towards the north, and they met during their different migrations. The appropriation of African owned land happened in 1948, during Apartheid (something that the British actually started but never coded in legislation like the European Afrikaans speaking people did). That was almost 100 years to the date that the English settler of 1852 settled land in what is now known as the Eastern Cape province. The English settlers, who I must add, appropriated the land of the Xhoza people and started the Xhoza frontier wars which lasted for years. It brought misery, hatred and problems that last to this day. This is a very short and condensed version of the history of South Africa, there are many more facts that can be relayed. However, do not try to blame Afrikaans speaking White South Africans for what is commonly accepted propaganda and indoctrination. May I then refer you to what is commonly known propaganda (by us): that the US of A school curriculum said until after WWII that Jan van Riebeeck arrived at the Cape of Good Hope and confiscated the computers of the Hottentotte and dumped it into the sea. Do not be ignorant of the facts. I has taken a lot of restraint from me to pen this reply in a civil tone. Propaganda, indoctrination, false political agendas and false reporting does not constitute facts. Here is a brief summary of the events that stand out in our history, up to 1950. I also post a link to back my statements up: A chronology of key events: 4th century - Migrants from the north settle, joining the indigenous San and Khoikhoi people. 1480s - Portuguese navigator Bartholomeu Dias is the first European to travel round the southern tip of Africa. 1497 - Portuguese explorer Vasco da Gama lands on Natal coast. 1652 - Jan van Riebeeck, representing the Dutch East India Company, founds the Cape Colony at Table Bay. 1795 - British forces seize Cape Colony from the Netherlands. Territory is returned to the Dutch in 1803; ceded to the British in 1806. 1816-1826 - Shaka Zulu founds and expands the Zulu empire, creates a formidable fighting force. 1835-1840 - Boers leave Cape Colony in the 'Great Trek' and found the Orange Free State and the Transvaal. 1852 - British grant limited self-government to the Transvaal. 1856 - Natal separates from the Cape Colony. Late 1850s - Boers proclaim the Transvaal a republic. 1860-1911 - Arrival of thousands of labourers and traders from India, forebears of the majority of South Africa's current Indian population. 1867 - Diamonds discovered at Kimberley. 1877 - Britain annexes the Transvaal. 1879 - British defeat the Zulus in Natal. 1880-81 - Boers rebel against the British, sparking the first Anglo-Boer War. Conflict ends with a negotiated peace. Transvaal is restored as a republic. Mid 1880s - Gold is discovered in the Transvaal, triggering the gold rush. 1899 - British troops gather on the Transvaal border and ignore an ultimatum to disperse. The second Anglo-Boer War begins. 1902 - Treaty of Vereeniging ends the second Anglo-Boer War. The Transvaal and Orange Free State are made self-governing colonies of the British Empire. 1910 - Formation of Union of South Africa by former British colonies of the Cape and Natal, and the Boer republics of Transvaal, and Orange Free State. 1912 - Native National Congress founded, later renamed the African National Congress (ANC). 1913 - Land Act introduced to prevent blacks, except those living in Cape Province, from buying land outside reserves. 1914 - National Party founded. 1918 - Secret Broederbond (brotherhood) established to advance the Afrikaner cause. 1919 - South West Africa (Namibia) comes under South African administration. 1934 - The Union of South Africa parliament enacts the Status of the Union Act, which declares the country to be "a sovereign independent state". The move followed on from Britain's passing of the Statute of Westminster in 1931, which removed the last vestiges of British legal authority over South Africa. Apartheid set in law 1948 - Policy of apartheid (separateness) adopted when National Party (NP) takes power. 1950 - Population classified by race. Group Areas Act passed to segregate blacks and whites. Communist Party banned. ANC responds with campaign of civil disobedience, led by Nelson Mandela. en.wikipedia.org |
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Rian Not sure how that contradicts Shiva’s comment that “South Africa wasn't settled by white colonists, it was APPROPRIATED by white colonists.” Your history lesson supports this. |
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What will Joe Biden do on immigration ? America is a land of immigrants including me although I came to US legally. After Christopher Columbus discovered America, Europeans came over, took over native Indian lands and settled down here. Initially, they were on their own. Half of Pilgrims who settled down in New England died. Because of the generosity and help of native Indians, the remaining Pilgrims survived. This is the story of Thanksgiving day origin. Time has changed on immigration. Modern day immigration is quite different. Migrants will come here as asylum seekers which you can get asylum tickets easily from UN sponsored organizations. As asylum seekers, they are entitled to all the amenities, food, shelter, medical care etc. that will be provided by host country USA according to international laws. There are half a million homeless people living on the streets of US prior to cv pandemic. There will be more homeless and unemployed nowadays. According to Biden's America last policy he will ignore the plight of poor and jobless Americans. Biden's first priority is to give US citizenship to DACA children and then to undocumented workers. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out why he will do like that. Democrats want their millions of votes in elections and stay in power forever. Democrats lobbed many rhetoric against Trump on immigration that he is a racist, putting the kids in cages, forcefully repatriate back to their unsafe homeland and so forth. AOC even fainted and collapsed when she saw the migrant kids in cages at the border. My questions now are, 1. What will Biden do to incomplete Trump's wall at the border ? Continue building, stop building or even dismantle it. 2. Will he dismantle cruel Immigration and Custom Enforcement (ICE) agency ? 3. Will he destroy the cages and invite the migrants with red carpets ? 4. Will he let the asylum seekers roam whatever they want to go in the USA. There are still a lot of questions remain to be asked by GK members. Please check the above youtube video to see what Joe Biden can do on immigration. |
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zorroloco 29-Nov-20, 11:52 |
Deleted by stalhandske on 30-Nov-20, 02:42.
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Ace He’ll stop wasting tax $ of trump’s useless canity wall “2. Will he dismantle cruel Immigration and Custom Enforcement (ICE) agency” Of course not. Policies will change. “3. Will he destroy the cages” Yes “and invite the migrants with red carpets ? “ No “4. Will he let the asylum seekers roam whatever they want to go in the USA.” No God man!! Use your brain!!!! |
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Riaan 8:25 I recall when I was researching for my book 'Rome in the East'. I was very surprised to discover that the Bantu were immigrants, too. Their long, slow migration started from the Nigeria/Cameroon area heading eastwards, and then turned south when it hit the Indian Ocean. In the First Century they had got no further south than Zanzibar, Everything further south was very lightly populated by nomadic hunter-gatherer cultures racially linked to the Khoisan/Hottentotts. In my book I used the time-tested excuse that the Khoisan were not 'people' but 'monkey-people', mere pests to be driven out of good farming and grazing land. The Dutch were much more enlightened, even if they imposed their own ideas of 'property' on a culture that didn't hold to such ideas. By-the-way, the British occupation of Cape Colony was NOT 'illegal'. You might remember that there was the small matter of the Napoleonic Wars going on at the time. Just like Americans like to think that the War of 1812 was caused by British spite, but it was actually started when the Americans effectively became Napoleon's allies. |
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bobspringett; 29-Nov-20, 13:21 I concede your point about the illegal occupation of the Cape, but I would like to give it a SA perspective later on. Right now I have to go to physiotherapy. And that part about the Khoi and San people can really be explored- I can illustrate severe Dutch (and Europeans in general) prejudice against the people who are arguably the oldest ethnic group in the world. I find that an interesting part of history. The words you use set the tone for a great exchange of ideas and thoughts. I would like to explore that with you. |
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Riaan |
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Rian But... Yes. Sorry Ace |
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stalhandske 30-Nov-20, 06:12 |
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Stal "According to Biden's America last policy he will ignore the plight of poor and jobless Americans. Biden's first priority is to give US citizenship to DACA children and then to undocumented workers. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out why he will do like that. Democrats want their millions of votes in elections and stay in power forever." Why? |
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stalhandske 30-Nov-20, 06:23 |
Zorro |
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Stal But that bull Shit is just malicious knowing lies and should be expunged. |
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stalhandske 30-Nov-20, 07:18 |
Zorro |
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Stal |
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stalhandske 30-Nov-20, 08:02 |
Zorro |
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Stal |
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