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 VicWell. I wasn't there either. So maybe it was not until after he was removed from the cross, because he's said to have uttered the prayer "Father! Why have You forsaken me", and then "Forgive them. For they know not what they have done." So maybe he found out about it after he died, huh? Or maybe ... ... ...? Or what if ... ... ..., huh? Or ... ... ... ...? Or maybe God decided that it was none of Man's business, huh? |
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Vic 20:35 & 20:57 I was initially disappointed that your immediate reaction (20:35) seemed confrontational, but your follow-up was in what I would like to see more often in this club. Thank you! |
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Shiva 20:16 Some were crucified upside down (legend says this happened to St. Peter, and behind the pious self-effacement attributed to Peter we can only speculate why), some were crucified facing the timbers, (perhaps with a stick jammed up the rectum), and only the imagination of the executioners limited their inventiveness. Anything for a giggle. |
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@Bob @Mo I’m reluctant to speculate on questions that aren’t addressed in the Bible. I gave you educated guesses based on the Scriptures. BTW, what makes you think God spoke to Muhammad? |
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Well. I wasn't there either. So maybe it was not until after he was removed from the cross, because he's said to have uttered the prayer "Father! Why have You forsaken me", and then "Forgive them. For they know not what they have done." So maybe he found out about it after he died, huh? Or maybe ... ... ...? Or what if ... ... ..., huh? Or ... ... ... ...? Or maybe God decided that it was none of Man's business, huh?>> My guess was Jesus knew He was God incarnate in His adolescence (12 years old) and I cited the Scripture supporting that. Jesus knew He was God incarnate well before His crucifixion/physical death. Maybe this will help. Jesus knew He was God incarnate well before the crucifixion and knew the theological significance of His crucifixion before it took place. <<Did Jesus say He is God? It is true that Jesus never said the exact words, “I am God.” He did, however, make the claim to be God in many different ways, and those who heard Him knew exactly what He was saying. For example, in John 10:30, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” The Jews who heard Him make that statement knew well that He was claiming to be God, as witnessed by their reaction: “His Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him” (John 10:31). When He asked them why they were attempting to stone Him, they said, “For blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). Stoning was the penalty for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16), and the Jews plainly accused Jesus of claiming to be God. Jesus made another statement claiming to be God when He said, “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. On this occasion, too, they tried to stone Him for blasphemy. The Gospel of John begins with a statement of Jesus’ deity: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1.) In verse 14, John identifies the Word: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John is affirming that the Word (Jesus) is God, and He left heaven to come to earth in the form of a man to live with men and display the glory of God the Father. The disciples of Jesus distinctly heard Him declare His deity. After Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas the doubting disciple finally understood Jesus’ deity, declaring Him to be “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28). If Jesus were not Lord and God, He would have corrected Thomas, but He did not; Thomas spoke the truth. After seeing Jesus walking on the water, His disciples worshipped Him (Matthew 14:33). When He appeared to them after the resurrection, they fell at His feet and worshipped Him (Matthew 28:9). The disciples were well aware of the Mosaic Law’s penalty for blasphemy, yet they worshipped Him as God, and Jesus accepted their worship. Jesus never rebuked people for worshipping Him, accepting their worship as good and proper. Jesus’ deity is recognized throughout the New Testament. Paul eagerly awaited “the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13) and encouraged us to do the same. Both Paul and John declared that Jesus created the universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16–17), yet Genesis 1:1 clearly says that God created the heavens and the earth. This can only mean that Jesus is God. Even God the Father referred to Jesus as God: “About the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever’” (Hebrews 1:8, quoting Psalm 45:6). Did Jesus say He was God? Yes, in many ways, including applying the names and attributes of God to Himself. He made it clear that He was God incarnate, proving it by His words, by His miracles, and finally by His resurrection from the dead. Although they doubted at first, those who were finally convinced of His deity understood why He had to die on the cross. If He were a mere man, His death would have been only sufficient to pay for His own sins, but because He was God in the flesh, His sacrifice was infinite and holy and able to pay for all the sins of the world.>> www.gotquestions.org |
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Vic 21:44 Read my 21:25 post again. Here it is... "First, I was pleased to see that you checked outside sources to assess Shiva's post, and even more so that you reported back your correction. Excellent work! I was initially disappointed that your immediate reaction (20:35) seemed confrontational, but your follow-up was in what I would like to see more often in this club. Thank you!" How is that 'obnoxious'? Saying I was pleased? Using the word 'excellent'? Saying I want to see more posts like that in this club? Thanking you? Even the most adverse words there are "SEEMED confrontational", followed immediately by an explanation why they were not what they 'seemed'. Golly, you are a hard man to please! You seem to go out of your way to find something to object to; and even if there's nothing there, you will raise an objection anyway. I suppose that's what makes me so 'argumentative' copmpared to you. |
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<<AI Overview In a biblical context, salvation refers to God's act of saving humanity from sin and its consequences, ultimately leading to eternal life and a relationship with God. Here's a more detailed explanation: Deliverance from Sin and its Consequences: Salvation is primarily understood as deliverance from the power and penalty of sin, which includes eternal death and separation from God. Redemption through Christ: Salvation is achieved through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is seen as the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Justification: Salvation brings about justification, which is God's act of declaring sinners righteous in His sight, free from guilt and condemnation. Spiritual and Eternal: While salvation can also encompass material preservation and healing, its core meaning is spiritual and focuses on eternal life and a relationship with God. Faith and Repentance: While the specific theological interpretations of salvation vary across Christian denominations, the concept of faith in Jesus Christ and repentance from sin are often seen as essential components of receiving salvation.>> www.google.com Caveat: While believing in Jesus Christ is a consistent requirement for salvation throughout the Bible, “repentance from sin” is not only not a consistent requirement, it’s not even mentioned. “Repentance” is mentioned, but the Greek word translated into repentance is metanoia, which means to change one’s mind. And it’s used in the context of the Gospel. “Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” (John 1:14-15) Repentance from sins as a requirement for salvation cannot be squared with salvation being a gift from God that is obtained by Grace through faith and not of works. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9) But sinning still carries natural consequences and potential discipline by the Lord. “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (Galatians 6:7-8) <<What does Galatians 6:8 mean? In the previous verse, Paul reinforced the universal principle that people reap what they sow in life. Job said something similar, "As I have seen, those who plow iniquity and sow trouble reap the same" (Job 4:8). The crops we get will be decided by the seed we put in the ground. In other words, natural cause and effect still applies, both to the Christian and to the unbeliever. Paul now clarifies this principle of sowing and reaping, in the context of the Spirit of God. Paul has demonstrated in his letter that it is possible to "sow to the flesh," meaning to invest our lives in serving ourselves, through two different mistakes. One mistake is that of legalism. The Judaizers were urging the Galatians to trust their flesh in the sense that they wanted them to hope that their attempts to follow the law of Moses would make them justified before God (Galatians 2:4). Paul says to those who would trust their own effort in this way that what they will reap, instead, is corruption. That's because the product of our "flesh," our ability to do good in our own power with our bodies, is poisoned with sin. It can't grow the good crop of righteousness and eternal life. At the same time, some of the Galatian Christians were apparently "sowing to the flesh" by doing whatever felt good to their bodies. They were indulging in sin. The result would be the same for them as it was for the legalists: a harvest of corruption. Eternal life is only available through the power of God's Spirit. Those who "sow to the Spirit" in that they are trusting Christ for salvation and receiving God's Spirit will receive eternal life. Then they will continue to live in the strength of God's Spirit and bear the fruit described in Galatians 5:22–23.>> www.bibleref.com. Relevant verses from Romans… “For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:6-9) |
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Vic It's sometimes difficult to be confident where your cut-and-paste ends and your own words begin. Unless you advise otherwise, I will take it that the bit from 'Caveat' to 'Galatians' are your words. My response:- 1. I agree that the AI overview is a fair summary of the classic formulations. Of interest to me was the phrase "While the specific theological interpretations of salvation vary across Christian denominations", which implies that various different interpretations are all considered 'mainstream'. There is no one single 'Biblical' interpretation. 2. I'm confused by your 'caveat' and what follows. The caveat itself and the comment following the quote from John 1 appears to say that repentance is not a requirement. Yet the quote itself contains the command "Repent". Please clarify. 3. The word 'carnal' appears to feature large in your thinking. Please say precisely what Paul means by it in these verses (in your view). 4. I'm pleased to see that you are looking to opinions of scholars rather than relying only on your own spontaneous ideas, even though you have previously labelled that practice as 'carnal'. I'm hoping that this indicates some degree of acceptance that you are willing to accept that sometimes the Spirit speaks to the individual through the Body (i.e., other Christians) as well as directly. |
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It’s a good summary of the truth, with imo one major caveat. <<Of interest to me was the phrase "While the specific theological interpretations of salvation vary across Christian denominations", which implies that various different interpretations are all considered 'mainstream'.>> I don’t think that’s what it says at all. You stopped short of including “…the concept of faith in Jesus Christ and repentance from sin are often seen as essential components of receiving salvation.” which immediately follows what you did quote. <<There is no one single 'Biblical' interpretation.>> There is one single Biblical truth. <<2. I'm confused by your 'caveat' and what follows. The caveat itself and the comment following the quote from John 1 appears to say that repentance is not a requirement. Yet the quote itself contains the command "Repent". Please clarify.>> This was explained in the post. You seem to be equating “repent” with “repent from sins.” The Greek word translated into English as repent is metanoia, which means change of mind; that is going from unbelief to belief in Jesus Christ and the Gospel. Mark 1:14-15 (I accidentally labeled those verses as being from the Gospel of John) does not say “Repent from sins.” In fact I don’t think the phrase “repent from sins” appears anywhere in the New Testament. If you read Mark 1:15 with the knowledge of the Greek word metanoia, you get… “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: *change your mind* and believe the gospel.” <<change your mind The first public word out of his, [Jesus'], mouth was later translated into the Greek imperative verb metanoeite, which literally means “change your mind” or “go beyond your mind” (see Matthew 4:17 and Mark 1:15). Unfortunately... St. Jerome translated the word into Latin as paenitentia “repent”>> biblehub.com www.google.com <<3. The word 'carnal' appears to feature large in your thinking. Please say precisely what Paul means by it in these verses (in your view).>> This also was explained in the post. Carnal is reliance on human wisdom and human effort (in lieu of spiritual wisdom and God’s Holy Spirit for guidance and direction) and also means indulging the flesh, though every Christian experiences a struggle between the Spirit and the flesh to some degree. <<4. I'm pleased to see that you are looking to opinions of scholars rather than relying only on your own spontaneous ideas, even though you have previously labelled that practice as 'carnal'.>> I’ll ignore the condescension and simply say what you label “spontaneous ideas” is guidance from God’s Holy Spirit which indwells me because I believe in Jesus Christ and in the Gospel. **Most importantly, I already know what I believe before I read commentaries. I don’t read commentaries to figure out what I believe but to reinforce and amplify what I believe or, if the commentaries are contrary to what I believe, to poke holes in their reasoning, arguments and conclusions. I figured out what I believe years and years ago from reading the Bible, prayer and guidance from God’s Holy Spirit.** <<I'm hoping that this indicates some degree of acceptance that you are willing to accept that sometimes the Spirit speaks to the individual through the Body (i.e., other Christians) as well as directly.>> The problem with Christianity is too many people who identify as Christians don’t understand or believe the Gospel, don’t understand or believe the Bible and don’t understand the faith. That’s why so many competing factions exist and the Body of Christ is not unified. I believe the Holy Spirit will guide all believers into the truth. The problem is many self-identified Christians reject the Gospel and think one gets into Heaven by “being a good person” or “being more good than bad.” Ask them what Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross and you’ll likely get a blank stare. And I think many Christians who (by definition) believe the Gospel are not listening to the Holy Spirit but instead are conformed (and conforming) to the world. |
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