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 <<An indigenous nation in Canada says it has discovered evidence of 54 unmarked graves at the sites of two former residential schools in Saskatchewan.>> <<Indigenous investigations across the country have found evidence of more than 1,100 graves since last spring.>> <<Just weeks ago, the Williams Lake First Nation announced it had found evidence of 93 unmarked graves on the grounds of St Joseph Mission, a former residential school.>> I’m not trying to be gruesome or disrespectful, but what is the evidence? Skeletal remains? Something else? Why is the reader supposed to guess? They say evidence has been found but never identify the evidence. <<Ted Quewezance, project leader of the Keeseekoose's search, said ground-penetrating radar technology suggested there were 42 grave sites at the grounds of Fort Pelly Residential School, and an additional 12 at St Phillip's.>> Ground-penetrating radar “suggested?” I’m not defending the Catholic church or Canadian government. I just find it very strange some sources claim numerous unmarked graves exist at these former schools and other sources say not one unmarked grave has been found. The above bracketed paragraphs are strangely ambiguous. This bracketed paragraph from National Review (article posted at 15:36) isn’t… <<In all the excavations that have been conducted, not a single unmarked grave has been found. Not one. This despite the fact that it would be expected that at some long-abandoned schools, where mortality rates in the late 19th century were abominably high, markers of graves had been lost to time and inattention.>> BTW, my skepticism is not on the schools being poorly run or that they treated indigenous children poorly. It’s strictly on the claim of mass unmarked graves of indigenous children who allegedly died at the schools. |
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And given this thread was started to smear Christianity, I think I’m fully justified in asking your opinion on the link between Darwinism and the Rwandan genocide of 800,000 people and the link between atheism and the killing of 94+ million people by communist governments in the 20th century. What are your thoughts on those? |
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“Prince Harry says supporting Meghan Markle with mental health struggles taught him value of listening” Can you post the correct link? |
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<<But on May 27, the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation announced that a land survey using ground-penetrating radar at the site of the former Kamloops Indian Residential School in British Columbia discovered the remains of 215 children—and more are expected to be found after another survey this month.>> Were excavations done? Have the remains been recovered? I don’t know how anyone squares the above bracketed paragraph with this, from the National Review article posted at 15:36 on the previous page. <<There’s one problem. It was built on lies. In all the excavations that have been conducted, not a single unmarked grave has been found. Not one. This despite the fact that it would be expected that at some long-abandoned schools, where mortality rates in the late 19th century were abominably high, markers of graves had been lost to time and inattention.>> |
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Bones |
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20:11 Bangalore Link bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com |
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It’s good to see “physical evidence, physical proof” (as the first speaker in the video said.) There should be (or should have been) more excavations to determine the extent of unmarked graves. We should be able to know how many excavations have taken place and how many skeletal remains have been discovered. And of course that the skeletal remains were of children and from the time period the schools were run. |
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National Review In 2015, the magazine published an editorial titled "Against Trump", calling Donald Trump a "philosophically unmoored political opportunist" and announcing its adamant and uniform opposition to his presidential candidacy for the Republican nomination for president.[30] After Trump's 2016 electoral victory over Hillary Clinton, and through his administration, the National Review editorial board continued to criticize him.[31][32][33][non-primary source needed] However, some National Review and National Review Online contributors took more varied positions on Trump. Hanson, for instance, supports him,[34] while others, such as editor Ramesh Ponnuru and contributor Jonah Goldberg, have remained uniformly critical of Trump. Wiki It has never endorsed Groper. But it is wrong on climate science, and wrong on the graves. I don’t know when your article was published, before or after the refuting video content I posted was created, but either way they took a position that wasn’t defensible to begin with. It would be like saying they didn’t believe buffalo ever existed, since they don’t see any outside their window now. And the blinds remain drawn. |
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And I find it very hard to believe that ground-penetrating radar can classify how many children are represented by the remains. |
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Same Types of Errors According to Philip Bump of The Washington Post, National Review "has regularly criticized and rejected the scientific consensus on climate change".[56] In 2015, the magazine published an intentionally deceptive graph which suggested that there was no climate change.[56][57][58] The graph set the lower and upper bounds of the chart at -10 and 110 degrees Fahrenheit and zoomed out so as to obscure warming trends.[58] In 2017, National Review published an article alleging that a top NOAA scientist claimed that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration engaged in data manipulation and rushed a study based on faulty data in order to influence the Paris climate negotiations.[59] The article largely repeated allegations made in the Daily Mail without independent verification.[60] The scientist in question later rejected the claims made by National Review, noting that he did not accuse NOAA of data manipulation but instead raised concerns about "the way data was handled, documented and stored, raising issues of transparency and availability".[59] In 2014, climate scientist Michael E. Mann sued National Review for defamation after columnist Mark Steyn accused Mann of fraud and referenced a quote from Competitive Enterprise Institute (CEI) writer Rand Simberg that called Mann "the Jerry Sandusky of climate science, except that instead of molesting children, he has molested and tortured data."[61][62] Civil liberties organizations such as the ACLU and the Electronic Frontier Foundation and several publications such as The Washington Post expressed support for National Review in the lawsuit, filing amicus briefs in their defense.[63] In February 2024, Mann was awarded over $1 million from Steyn and Simberg. Wiki But it often does correct errors: In June 2008, National Review correspondent Jim Geraghty published an article encouraging Barack Obama to release his birth certificate in order to debunk false rumors circulating on conservative forums and blogs. Geraghty's column may have brought these conspiracy theories about Obama to mainstream attention.[65][66] Karen Tumulty wrote in Time that Geraghty's article "became fodder for cable television."[67] Obama released his birth certificate a few days after Geraghty's column, and Geraghty wrote that there was "no reason" to doubt its authenticity.[65][66] In a July 2009 column, the National Review editorial board called conspiracies about Obama's citizenship "untrue." First off, no one said “mass graves.” They claimed unmarked burial sites. No one ever implied mass executions of students, only that there was culture annihilating indoctrination and callously handled deaths. Denialists use the term “mass graves” so the story can be dismissed as a hoax. theconversation.com The real story is essentially the kidnapping of the children to erase native culture and traditions. |
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And I could spend hours disputing and defending sources, but I’d rather discuss evidence. National Review says excavations found no unmarked graves (which seems like a polite way of saying skeletal remains) and the video you posted identified a jawbone fragment from a child, which apparently did not come from an excavation but from a gopher bringing it to the surface. Again, I’m not saying these schools were a good idea or were well run or that indigenous children were not treated poorly at them. My skepticism is strictly on mass unmarked graves of children at these schools. Here’s my issue: We have a lot of claims that ground-penetrating radar has identified remains of literally hundreds of children at these schools, but excavations apparently aren’t turning them up. Where are they? One would think if excavations had turned up skeletal remains of children at these schools, news conferences would have been held where that was explicitly stated, and, if decorum permitted, the evidence was presented. |
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Climate Denialism “Residential school denialism, like climate change denialism or science denialism, cherry-picks evidence to fit a conspiratorial counter-narrative. This distorts basic facts and the overall legacy of the Indian Residential School System (IRSS) to alleviate settler guilt and block important truth and reconciliation efforts.” And here is the National Review STILL getting the story wrong: www.nationalreview.com Review gets it wrong. It wasn’t 35%, it was under 7%, and most of that 7% were endorsing hoax versions to dismiss the real tragedy. “To honour the 215 children whose lives were taken at the former Kamloops residential school and all Indigenous children who never made it home…” Trudeau (multiple sources). It is unfortunate he used the expression “whose lives were taken…” which lays a foundation for a “mass graves” claim, something Trudeau never said. When you hear about 6000 dead children it is only natural to conjure “mass grave,” even though the burials occurred over the course of eight decades across as many as 200 sites. I’m not sure what number constitutes a mass grave, but even ten schools means less than one child a month per school over 960 months. It was probably closer to ten decades, though for the last two or three unmarked burials would have ceased. Some of the children very likely suffered rape, sexual and physical abuse, and death. Look how many inmates die in custody. And they are not as easy to kill as children. Jeffrey Epstein was murdered by Groper goons. If your child dies in the custody of someone else, wouldn’t you blame that person? That does excuse Trudeau’s turn of phrase. Bereaved parents have every right to feel a bit out of sorts or aggrieved when their child dies in captivity. |
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That simply isn’t true. American media have used that phrase. <<They claimed unmarked burial sites.>> Your own sources have stated remains from 215 indigenous children were found at a single school. To me, that’s a mass grave. But these remains were apparently identified only by ground-penetrating radar. How ground-penetrating radar can determine remains belong to indigenous children is beyond me. <<No one ever implied mass executions of students,>> Nor did I or the sources I cited. You’re drifting into trolling. <<only that there was culture annihilating indoctrination and callously handled deaths.>> If by “callously handled deaths” you mean school authorities buried the bodies of deceased students instead of returning them to their parents, that’s obviously wrong but where is the evidence that this happened? <<Denialists use the term “mass graves” so the story can be dismissed as a hoax.>> The media use the term. And I’d say 215 children being buried at a single school (as one of your sources said) is a mass grave. <<The real story is essentially the kidnapping of the children to erase native culture and traditions.>> Are you saying the children were taken from their parents against the parents’ will? |
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• Were skeletal remains of indigenous children found at the schools through excavations? |
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Dispute Yes, this is horse sh*t. Vapid nonsense spewed by equestrian ignoranuses. As for atheists killing commies, I really have nothing to say, aside from their killing wasn’t justified on the basis of atheism. Humanists are more humane than, for example, the Christians responsible for mass killings and rapes in Kosovo, or the Irish troubles, or Christians in Lebanon murdering Arabs, or the hate filled Westboro Baptists, or Focus on the Family sponsoring execute gay bills in Uganda. I have no more need to defend atheism any more than I do my own belief in a supreme being. |
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Mass Grave <<That simply isn’t true. American media have used that phrase.>> Your hoaxers. Over 90% of Canadian press correctly referred to burial sites. 7% said “mass graves,” which implies mass burials no one alleged. <<<<They claimed unmarked burial sites.>>>> <<Your own sources have stated remains from 215 indigenous children were found at a single school. To me, that’s a mass grave. >> There is a cemetery near me where 3000 people are buried. Is that a mass grave? The photos of the grave sites indicate individual burials over stretches of time analogous to the chronological distribution of graves at the local cemetery. This is what National Review has done. They called it a mass grave, so it sounds like 215 children were all killed and buried in one big pit, and THAT is what they are dismissing as a hoax. It is THEIR hoax, just like “Russia, Russia, Russia” is Groper’s hoax. The collusion was certainly real—he pardoned two of his accomplices FOR COLLUSION. But “mass graves” detracts from the real story—the cultural genocide, similar to the evil dictator and war criminal Putin’s plan for Ukraine. |
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That’s your rebuttal? That doesn’t sound very evidence-based. As to your other statements, atheism and communism are very clearly linked, and atheists in communist governments killed 94+ million of their own citizens in the 20th century. Do you dispute that? And I’m well aware you’re a pantheist. But I’d be curious what evidence supports pantheism and if you would agree that believing a false god exists is no better than believing no god exists. Worshipping false gods is as old as the Bible and is what got the Jews in trouble in the Old Testament – when they abandoned the true living God, He withdrew His protection from them and allowed them to be conquered and enslaved. |
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<<In all the excavations that have been conducted, not a single unmarked grave has been found. Not one. This despite the fact that it would be expected that at some long-abandoned schools, where mortality rates in the late 19th century were abominably high, markers of graves had been lost to time and inattention.>> Do you dispute that or not? |
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Parent’s Will School records show 4000, but many records were lost and other information indicates at least 6000, and likely more. So 4000 is recorded, but the actual number is likely 8000 to 12,000. That’s still under 10% of the children taken. To me, a mass grave is one grave containing many bodies, very different from a field used as a cemetery. “The schools caused significant harm to Indigenous children by removing them from their families and culture, leading to physical and sexual abuse, malnutrition, and disease. Many students faced forced assimilation, losing their identities and struggling to fit into both their communities and mainstream society. This disruption has contributed to ongoing issues like post-traumatic stress and substance abuse in Indigenous communities. The number of school-related deaths remains unknown due to incomplete records. Estimates range from 3,200 to over 30,000, mostly from disease.” This was NOT a hoax: As the system was designed as an immersion program, Indigenous children were in many schools prohibited from, and sometimes punished for, speaking their own languages or practicing their own faiths. The primary goal was to convert Indigenous children to Christianity and acculturate them. Despite the shift in policy from educational assimilation to integration, the removal of Indigenous children from their families by state officials continued through much of the 1960s and 70s.[40]: 147 The removals were the result of the 1951 addition of section 88 of the Indian Act, which allowed for the application of provincial laws to Indigenous peoples living on reserves in instances where federal laws were not in place. The change included the monitoring of child welfare.[42][43] With no requirement for specialized training regarding the traditions or lifestyles of the communities they entered, provincial officials assessed the welfare of Indigenous children based on Euro-Canadian values that, for example, deemed traditional diets of game, fish and berries insufficient and grounds for taking children into custody.[41] This period resulted in the widespread removal of Indigenous children from their traditional communities, first termed the Sixties Scoop by Patrick Johnston, the author of the 1983 report Native Children and the Child Welfare System. Often taken without the consent of their parents or community elders, some children were placed in state-run child welfare facilities, increasingly operated in former residential schools, while others were fostered or placed up for adoption by predominantly non-Indigenous families throughout Canada and the United States. Some parents and families of Indigenous children resisted the residential school system throughout its existence. Children were kept from schools and, in some cases, hidden from government officials tasked with rounding up children on reserves. End quote. In one school the death rate reached 69%. This explains the higher, 30,000 estimate. So they died, the fact they died was recorded, students on leaving school sometimes returned to their communities where they could inform parents of the missing about the deaths of their children, often siblings or cousins. The bodies were not shipped back, so where did they go? Where traditions dictate burial grounds should remain undisturbed and no family members survive, there is compelling reason to NOT rob graves. |
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My sole skepticism is on the claim hundreds (if not thousands) of unmarked graves of indigenous children are at the schools. And my skepticism is due to lack of evidence. If you want to post about other issues, that’s obviously fine, but I’ve asked you two pertinent questions that (at the time I’m writing this post,) you’ve left unaddressed… • Were skeletal remains of indigenous children found at the schools through excavations? • Do you dispute this paragraph from a National Review article published Feb. 28, 2025 or not? If so, on what basis? <<In all the excavations that have been conducted, not a single unmarked grave has been found. Not one. This despite the fact that it would be expected that at some long-abandoned schools, where mortality rates in the late 19th century were abominably high, markers of graves had been lost to time and inattention.>> |
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It would be my opinion that this thread was originally about the harm done to children in these schools, and the initial discussions were about the relative contributions made by a wide range of conditions. If that is the case, I think Shiva has done well to keep on the subject and consider the many nuances involved. I would urge other members to veer back onto that course. Vic, this is NOT about the merits or otherwise of any particular religious opinion in relation to 'Truth', but about the impact of Christian denominations and their practices, government policy and its implementation, broader racially-biased assumptions by administrators, and a range of other influences upon the children and their welfare. Please focus on that. Let's discuss the various contributing factors, their relative impact and any evidence to support those estimates of relative impact. |
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@Bob |
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jonheck 12-Mar-25, 02:34 |
victoriasas Dig carefully and be sure to count what you find. If only 214 remains show up then we got um for falsely claiming that they saw evidence of 215, proof of their outrageous lying tactic’s |
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@jonheck Excavations *have* been done and, according to National Review, they didn’t turn up a single unmarked grave. I’m just wondering why. Not everything should be accepted at face value, like your evangelist screaming through a bullhorn and able to be heard from blocks away at festivals you’ve attended. And yet somehow this Bible-thumping scallywag avoids the police (or no one calls the police, you never said which) though eardrums are bursting all around him. |
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Vic 01:55 So now let's move on the substantive matter of what complex of causes gave rise the undisputed injustice to Indians, and what is to be learned from it. |
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jonheck 12-Mar-25, 06:11 |
victoriasas Beyond that, the data that has been provided on this thread is clear enough, there is no realistic cause for you to doubt it, any more than you have any reason to doubt my festival experience. Irregardless of how difficult the facts may be for you , the bad actors are bible thumping Christians, with their Christian schools with their forced Christian indoctrination's. You’re not going to successfully argue in their defense with imaginary issues, and side steps. I will not be responding to you on this thread again |
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jonheck 12-Mar-25, 06:58 |
Bobspringett I got one. They were thought of as heathens, ie: not Christians. Gods work was being done, praise the Lord! <and whats to be learned from it>. Apparently little more than how to do it on larger scales. More rational lessons may need to await the further evolution of man. Wake me up when we no longer look like God! |
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Jon 06:58 |
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