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peterliberty 18-Dec-08, 08:36 |
 The Christian God versus the God of IslamThe major premise is "You believe in the same god." Islamists and Christians do not believe in the same God. That is an illusion created by those who are ignorant of one or both faiths, whether they claim to adhere to either one or to neither of them, and whether they adhere to any faith at all or claim to deny faith in any god at all. Any one who is fully cognizant of the teachings of both Islam and Christianity regarding the character of their God could not possibly conclude that they are the same God. Islam is not a religion of peace. For 1400 years they have attempted to convert the world by force. More precisely, those who adhere most strictly to the teachings of Islam are more concerned that Islamic law, "Shari'a", be enforced worldwide, whether or not non-Islamic peoples become Muslims or not. But in practice it amounts to the same thing--forcing the world with the power of the sword to accept Islamic law. Christianity, on the other hand, is a religion of peace and has usually tried to win converts by persuasion rather than by force. I know that there have been occasions in which some persons or group who claim to act in the name of Christ put the lie to that statement, but the fact is that I am not now down in Mexico putting a sword to your neck [skepticus] to force you to become a Christian. I would only hope that I can persuade you. Peace, defined as a lack of physical threat to person or property is not something Christ promised his followers on this earth. There are many texts that support this premise. One is found in John 15:18-25. In all of these texts, the reason that peace is not promised is because the world (a term referring to the people who have not accepted the message of Christ) has an animus toward Christ and his followers. That animus is not earned and is not to be returned in kind. Nevertheless, the animus of unbelievers (in Christ) is the source of a lack of physical peace in this life for Christians. They, themselves, should not, (and in most cases, do not) cause the lack of peace themselves. The difference between the warlike Islamic world, and the more peace-loving Christian world is founded in the character of the God each serves. I don't believe you can prove or even make an adequate claim that the major premise is true. We do not serve the same God and the first premise is false. The minor premise is: "You can live in peace." Or, alternatively, perhaps, the logistician intended to say, "You cannot live in peace." I will discuss both possibilities. (1) "You can live in peace". With this formation of the minor premise, which was the one actually presented to me, I believe my interlocutor intended to say, though he has not yet clarified his meaning, that it is possible to live in peace in this world, with the implication that because believers in the same God do not live in peace that is a justification for atheism. Since, the major premise is untrue, it is perhaps unnecessary to examine the minor premise as well, as the conclusion, while possibly true, cannot be defended by the validity of the premises. Nevertheless, I believe the minor premise, in either format, is worthy of examination. Is it possible to live in peace in the world as we know it? Living in peace in this world is tough for those who take any kind of a position of "certainty". People tend not to like people who are sure of themselves. Their certainty frequently presents an unpleasant threat and encourages an unwanted examination of ones own belief system. Sometimes this clash of ideas erupts into something which cannot be described as peaceful discourse, and in extreme cases actually causes wars where tens of thousands of lives are lost. This does not necessarily mean that the position of "certainty" should be tossed aside for another position of "certainty" that is by no means more certain. The more extremely divergent the ideas, and the more strenuously held by their adherents, the more likely it is that violence will erupt from one side or the other. Christianity is an aggressive religion. Though Christian belief is spread primarily through persuasion, the very act of doing so provides the impetus of opposition and possible violence from those who do not wish to examine their own belief system in a comparison with the Christian belief system. This does not make the Christian belief system a violent one, however. One of the most extremely violent acts against the Christian belief system, so to speak, was the act of the crucifixion of Christ, an act to which Christ, though holding all the power of God in his own hand, did absolutely nothing to stop. I believe it is impossible for people of fervently held differing opinions to expect to live in peace in this world, for reasons that will be presented later in this argument. (2) "You cannot live in peace." I accept the premise as it stands--but not the implication that I presume my interlocutor was presenting. That was, I believe, (I have yet to receive assurance that this understanding of his meaning is correct) that believers in the same god should be able to live in peace, but do not, and that that fact therefore it justifies the alternative of atheism. In other words, the fact that we do not live in peace though it is possible puts the curse on both our houses, and gives atheism credence as an alternative. The positive form of the premise condemns Christianity and Islam alike for not being able to do what the rest of the world presumably demonstrates is possible--that is, to live in peace. The negative form of the premise condemns Christianity and Islam alike for not providing a solution to the violent tendencies of man. I must dispute the premise that it is possible in this world to live in peace, period. We can achieve a measure of peace but perfect peace in the physical sense is not attainable because of the problem Christians call sin, but all the world calls evil. It is the Cain syndrome. We simply tend to hate those who are different from us at some level. And the one we tend to hate the most because He is most distinct from us, is God. Sometimes the hatred is expressed simply in snide remarks. Sometimes it boils over into monstrous evil. We can arrogantly assume we are better than that but it catches us all at some time, in some place with some person or another, or some group of people or another. Christianity, however, does provide a solution. Mankind's enmity with God is the source of the problem. Christ's atoning sacrifice is the solution. Those people who have accepted his atoning sacrifice as sufficient to effect our reconciliation with God seek to aggressively present this personal solution for the consideration of others as well. They are very reluctant to turn to engage in violence, even if the violence is defensive in nature. Some Christian groups, following the example of Christ as He faced crucifixion, eschew any form of violence at all, even defensive violence. Others believe that defensive violence seems to be necessary in a world in which violence is thrust upon them, as a means by which monstrous evil can be restrained. Those arguments are long and complex and are best left to another time. Suffice it to say that reconciliation with God encourages a conciliatory attitude toward our fellow man as well, and is a reason for an aggressive attempt to present through persuasion the Christian worldview to those who oppose that worldview. By the way, the solution to enmity, whether with God or man, is a solution and a reconciliation that comes directly from this supposedly wicked God of the Old Testament as presented in another thread in the Skeptic Cafe forum. That fact alone puts the lie to the myopic view of those who see in a few Old Testament passages a monstrously evil God. Now, since both the major premise and the minor premise (in both its negative and positive presentations) are false, they provide no justification for atheism. That is not to say that some justification for atheism might be found somewhere, but it is not in the false premises of this syllogism. By the way, there is a peace, an inner peace, which Christ provides, that is not dependent upon the turmoil of the world in which we live. That possibility is discussed in the Christmas piece I put on another thread in this forum. |
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---- Christianity a religion of peace? No coercion? No sword at the throat? If one conveniently forgets the crusades and the inquisition one might say that. But maybe these two glaring omissions were just examples of Christians defending themselves against Muslims minding their own business back in their own lands and those dangerous old helpless witch women spreading their heresies in medieval times. ---- Be well |
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sanktlucifer 11-Jan-09, 13:42 |
a religion of peace ? " But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me." These are words of christ himself... |
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Misquoting Jesus isn't necessary. There are so many barbaric 'holy' events and commandments in the Bible (enough to discredit it as the word of any Supreme Being) that exaggerating rather benign passages isn't necessary; it only damages the reputation of the skeptical. |
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sanktlucifer 17-Jan-09, 04:28 |
Deleted by sanktlucifer on 17-Jan-09, 22:52.
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tanta 15-Mar-09, 06:50 |
retort The major premise is "You believe in the same god." This is not the correct term to use for this issue, there are three; god-God-GOD. Islamists and Christians do not believe in the same God. http://en(dot)wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_angels I think that by reading the text at the above site will adress the issue of the same GOD. Any one who … As for the character, the former comes from one individual whom got his data from an angel; the second comes from many sorces all of which where also individuals whom had their own hidden agendas. So this character portraul is subject to much scruteny. A sane person must see that for both belief systems have many of the same persons, as does the christian, oh we are including judism. Abraham, job, jona, moses, and also have the same book. And lets not forget the angels. Any sane person would see that both a get datum from the same sourse. Islam is not a religion of peace. Nor is judaism or chritianity. For 1400 years … Concider, terrorism. You do not have to point a rifle or plant a bomb to terrorize someone. To threaten imprisonment and loss of home and belongings if you do not pay a tax that you do not think should be used for WAR is terrorism. I know that there have been occasions … You need to read about and then ask the North American Indian if the christians of the U.S. used peaceful means to convert them. would only hope that I can persuade you. Look to your own self, when the book of deeds and the book of life are opened you will be the only one there. Look to trimming your own wick to be sure you get into the marrage feast. You need to study in order to rightly devide the trueth. Peace, defined as a lack of physical threat to person or property is not something Christ promised his followers on this earth. There are many texts that support this premise. One is The difference between the warlike Islamic world, … I find variance with this statement, the characterization of the Islamic GOD is predicated on one person whom says that an angel thought him everything in the KORAN, this is a person whom ordered the his followers to kill a woman whom was speaking out against him. POINT: you are going to accept anyting this person.(from Ishaq:676 …MUHAMMAD said, will no one rid me of this woman…) I don't believe you can prove or even make an adequate claim … In a logic argument, all that is needed to disprove the statement is one datum, I have shown a couple. Your retort is false. The minor premise is: "You can live in peace." I have had enough, you tout peace by christians by way of the ultimate terror by everyone else vis a vis the putting the CHRIST up on a cross, well SIR; the supreme terror comes from your GOD vis a vis “go to hell if you do not accept the CHRIST, this means for eternity to be separated from good. BAH in chess the threat of a move is worse than the move itself, this is the purist form of terror. SIN IS THE WHIP AND FEAR THE POST THAT IS USED TO TERRORIZE PEOPLE INTO ACCEPTING CHRIST. [Sin and Fear: The Emergence of the Western Guilt Culture, 13Th-18th Centuries by Jean Delumeau] This does not make the Christian belief system a violent one, however. One of the most extremely violent acts against the Christian belief system, so to speak, was the act of the crucifixion of Christ, This ludicrous, your own sacred text (1 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 1:23, John 8:24) states that Jesus is GOD, period. Premise- if I _k n o w_ that I will not die, then someone holding a weapon to my head has no threat. This person Jesus knew from age 12 that he was GOD, so no kind of death threat means nothing, has no weight for any argument. an act to which Christ, though holding all the power of God in his own hand, did absolutely nothing to stop. I believe it is impossible for people of fervently held differing opinions to expect to live in peace in this world, for reasons that will be presented later in this argument. |
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tanta 15-Mar-09, 06:52 |
missing site from retort |
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peterliberty 30-Mar-09, 08:15 |
Deleted by peterliberty on 30-Mar-09, 08:37.
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peterliberty 30-Mar-09, 08:35 |
retort Your post makes virtually no sense to me whatsoever. In the first place, you seem to think I am the one who believes that the god of Islam and the God of the Christian are one and the same. No, no, no. Another made that assertion and it is to that assertion that I was responding. The whole point of my post was that there is one and only one God, the God in whom the Christian believes. The god of the Islamist is another god, a false god, indeed no god at all. So we do not by any stretch believe in the same god. Your second assertion is that Christianity is not a religion of peace. I've taken this subject up in my post to starcheck. There is no need to repeat it all here. I will say this. Of course the Creator of the universe could not be terrorized by the crucifixion--or could He. He took upon himself in that act the righteous judgment of God for the sins of the entire world. Taking upon myself the righteous judgment of God for my own sins is terrorizing enough to me. But the entire response of the Lord to the crucifixion was a a conciliatory act designed to effect the reconciliation of man to God. The fact that he submitted to it willingly does not negate its violence, nor does it make God an evil judge of mankind who shows no mercy, grace, love, patience, etc. We should be grateful that we have an out. I don't deserve one. You don't either--but it's there for us if we but accept the sacrifice of Christ as sufficient to pay the price for our perverseness. |
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peterliberty 30-Mar-09, 08:37 |
a different god???? Yes, there is only one. But there are many false gods that people create for themselves as an alternative to accepting the sovereign will of the one true God in their lives. It is these false "gods" to which I am referring. They exist only as a figment of human imagination. The only God who really exists is the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Christians can also, in moments of rebellion create such idols to trust, rather than trusting the God of their redemption. A great deal has been made of the "evil" in the crusades and the inquisition. I, for one, will never claim that Christians never make mistakes, for I know the darkness of my own heart more than anyone except my Lord. I even attempt from time to time to deceive Him--a losing endeavor to be sure. Being a Christian is not the end in this world, it's a process, the process of becoming more and more Christlike until the day comes when the Christian enters the presence of His Lord. Becoming a Christian is but the beginning of the process. We are not automatically incapable of doing evil. What is striking to me is that the crusades, which were a response to incursions into the everyday life of people like you and I who just want to live out our lives in peace, with threats of violence and demands of obeisance to a completely foreign belief system, and one which offers no hope at that. The violence thrust upon western Europeans was, surprise, surprise, returned in kind, and now people of all stripes fault the victims of the violence for returning violence for violence!!! Amazing!!!! Now with regard to the inquisition: I must say that I don't think there is much positive to be said for the inquisitors. However, compared to the "inquisitions" of 20th century totalitarian states in support of their false god of Caesar, the inquisitors were patsies. The numbers of people who were tortured in the inquisition were remarkably few, compared with the millions tortured and killed by the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Saddam Hussein, etc. This is not, of course, a pass for the inquisitors. But it does confirm the validity of my assertion that the reconciliation of Christ encourages a conciliatory attitude towards those who take a different point of view. We know from 20th century just how evil men can be in rejecting the reconciliation of Christ, and from the inquisition, we have some evidence that that evil was much more restrained by a desire for real conciliation. |
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peterliberty 30-Mar-09, 08:38 |
a religion of peace? With regard to the Luke passage you quoted, it is a parable which teaches a truth. The truth is that the Lord is the King of the world and we are his stewards. All is His--will we take care of it as such, or will we hoard it, laying claim to it for ourselves. In the final analysis, after God's patience is at an end, how we managed his affairs in his "absence" is going to mean a great deal. Have we treated his blessings as His? Or, have we assumed that they are ours and He is of no account. Since He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe it seems to me quite risky to pretend He is of no account for someday there will surely be an accounting. The fact that that day is a certainty does not make Him cruel and evil. The fact that He is long-suffering towards us and doesn't strike us down immediately when we ignore Him proves otherwise. An exposition of the passage, of which you chose to quote the final verse in a snide attack on Christ while ignoring the text as a whole, can be found here. www.jesuswalk.com |
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All gods are false Yes, there is only one.(As you admit, monotheism is fundamentally intolerant, and that has in the past led to wars and other evils) But there are many false gods that people create for themselves (yes, as we have created from primitive fears whatever god one is currently referring to) as an alternative to accepting the sovereign will of the one true God in their lives.(If the "god" you imagine wanted me to accept his/her will then with awesome super powers he/she could make it quite clear, that shouldn't be all that difficult.) It is these false "gods" to which I am referring. They exist only as a figment of human imagination.(and what makes you think yours isn't? After all other religions have books, other people deeply believe, other "miracles" and healings can be claimed by those believing in other gods) The only God who really exists is the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe (that's just an opinion, albeit reached by religious indoctrination--not really your fault). Christians can also, in moments of rebellion create such idols to trust, rather than trusting the God of their redemption (actually I'm not rebelling but using my "god"given brain). ~~ We are not automatically incapable of doing evil (yes, but with religion we even have a handy excuse, if need be) ~~The numbers of people who were tortured in the inquisition were remarkably few, compared with the millions tortured and killed by the likes of Hitler (he was never an atheist and Nazis were always officially Catholic--in a speech: "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."), Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao (Marxists and communists hungry for power), www.geocities.com And as far as (sunni Muslim) Saddam Hussein you probably couldn't find a more "deeply religious" leader, etc. www.courant.com Although many of the Christians I know are pretty nice people, albeit a bit misled, organized Christianity has much to answer for, from the evils of slavery to encouraging the subordinate position of women. Many wars, pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, persecutions...and all of a sudden it's handy to claim that's all in the past.As the famous quote by Steven Weinberg " Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." |
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tanta 04-Apr-09, 12:30 |
The Christian God versus the God of Islam |
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peterliberty 07-Apr-09, 07:16 |
The same God? You write: "let me see, your statement is that Islam and Christians do not have same GOD. well IF and i mean IF you read the KORAN, it is plain that they both come from the Same Root,IF you believe the Bible then you have to believe that an arcangel named Gabriel then read the Koran as this Islamic holy book was given to the Profhet Mohammed by Gabriel. end of your agrument against. but lets add some more prove, the Koran speaks of Moses, Abraham, Jonah you cannot exclude these from either belief system without destroying them, comclusion Islam and Christiandom have the same GOD" I answer: Why? Why is it plain? Just because they both refer to the same persons does not, I repeat, does not in anyway require that they came from the same source. You and I are using a great deal of the same language but it is manifestly clear to me that you and I do not agree. People refer to the same people all of the time and often from completely opposite perspectives. You're going to have to come up with something better than this to prove that the source of Islam and the source of Christianity is the same God. My argument that they are not the same God does not rest on such a nebulous notion that since both the Koran and the Bible mention Gabriel they were both inspired by the same God. No, my argument is based upon the undeniable fact that the god described by Islam in the Koran and the God described in the Bible bear virtually no resemblance to each other and therefore cannot be the same God. Oh, by the way, there is no need to exclude Moses, Abraham, Jonah or Jesus (also in the Koran) from either religion. The issue is God, not His presumed sidekicks. |
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tanta 08-Apr-09, 08:51 |
The Christian God versus the God of Islam }{-my words [No, my argument is based upon the undeniable fact that the god described by Islam in the Koran and the God described in the Bible bear virtually no resemblance to each other and therefore cannot be the same God.] }You posit no words that support this grandious statement, please present the undeniable fact.{ }Vague ? Indistinct ? please, please; tell me how is this so. For this discussion a fact: }Gabriel, an intity created by your GOD as an archangel- angel if you search it’s root in the hebrew means MESSENGER, so an archangel is a higher, messenger. As Gabriel is the direct link in my postulation between the Christian and Islamic GOD. This is a historical fact, by both systems, documented.{ }unless you can present documentation that refutes this, my postulation is valid and the GOD of Islam and Chritianity are the same.{ }In the Islamic system, everyone accepts that Gabriel gave the Koran to Mohammed, fact.{ }In the Christian system, everyone accepts that Gabriel will blow the Trumpit that will open the end of days. fact.{ }please please please give facts to show i am wrong.{ |
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tanta 14-Apr-09, 09:27 |
a quiet peterliberty as in all systems, when a trueth(undeniable fact) is given to prove that the system is wrong- S I L E N C E |
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tanta 28-Apr-09, 07:50 |
christian god v islamic god i am still waiting for the fact i thought so there is no fact |
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peterliberty 28-Apr-09, 09:57 |
Not in heaven yet. Look, you aren't interested in "the facts" because you are stuck in irrelevancies. To say that the God of Christians and the god of Islam are one and the same because both claim to know Gabriel and because both religions claim to have used him as their trumpet is absolutely ridiculous. It is akin to someone trying to claim that you and I are one and the same because we both have listened to Ray Charles sing. If you want to know the facts regarding the personality of the God of Christians, and the personality of the god of Islam you have simply to read the books, the Bible and the Koran. It should become clear even to someone as dense as you seem to be. Or, if that is not good enough, just compare their followers. You will not find many Christians who want to behead their enemies as a means to bring the world into their camp. The preferred method for Christians is to convince people to accept the truth through the strength of their argument, not the sharpness of their sword. And don't try and make a case against Christians with "the Crusades" and "the Inquisition" or any other failures of Christians past or present. No Christian will every try to make the argument that they are without fault. That is the irrational expectation of the haters of Christ. They somehow expect that Christians should be inhumanly without sin, though they themselves have found no way to get to a sinless state themselves. Anyone who does an honest investigation will quickly discover that Christians at their worst have not come close to the evil that is done by the followers of Mohammad or the followers of Marxist atheists who make themselves into the gods their people must worship, like Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Castro, etc. I've heard that when one argues with a fool it becomes impossible for others to tell who is the fool and who is not. Therefore, this discussion is at an end until at some point you can come up with something a bit less ridiculous then that both religions claim an association with a peripheral personality. |
