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peterliberty 17-Dec-08, 06:38 |
 ChristmasJust over two thousand years ago, a child was born. An angel appeared to some lonely shepherds to announce his birth as a Savior. The angel was joined by a heavenly host who proclaimed: “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.” Luke 2:14. These are troubling times. The economic news is terrible. Wars and the destruction of life seem never ending. Sickness afflicts our loved ones and ourselves, and human knowledge is often incapable of providing cures. Every human being has some measure of trouble. So what can this event possibly mean today? Who was this baby? “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life . . . . The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.” John 1:1, 3-4, 14. This baby was the Creator of the Universe Himself who came and dwelt on earth as a man. Why did He come? “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only son. . . . Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” John 3:16-18, 36. He came so we will not be condemned if we believe in Him. He came to save us from condemnation. Why would God be wrathful toward us? “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men . . . since what may be known about God is plain to them. . . . For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thinks to him . . . and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man . . .” Romans 1:18-19, 21-22. He is wrathful toward us because we look to false gods of our own making for the things He himself delights to provide for us in His creation and in His providence. How did this child provide salvation for us from the wrath of God? “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8. “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures . . . he was buried . . . he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and . . . appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.” I Corinthians 15:3-5. This child lived as a human being until adulthood, suffered God’s just punishment for our sins, and declared victory over sin and death by rising from the dead. So why do we have no peace in the midst of all of the world’s troubles? Perhaps, it is because we have turned away from the God who is the Creator of the universe. Perhaps, it is because we are placing our hope in the wrong gods. Perhaps we are replacing the true and living God with the false gods of government, or doctors, or our retirement plans, or some great world leader. Perhaps it is time to trust in Him as our Savior and to “humble [ourselves], therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift [us] up in due time. Cast all [our] anxiety on him because he cares for [us].” I Peter 5:6-7 What greater evidence can there possibly be of God’s sufficiency than His appearing as a human being, walking among us, dying in our place, and demonstrating the sufficiency of that life and death by His own resurrection? He is certainly worthy of our confidence and trust—no matter what troubles we may face on this earth. None of our false gods can remotely approach, either with promise or fulfillment , what God, the Creator and the Sustainer of all that is has provided for those who believe in Him. |
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Ancient celebration was plagiarized by Xtians All good wishes on this ancient festival of the rebirth of the sun. Maria |
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skepticus 18-Dec-08, 04:51 |
Pointless unless the passages are proved to be true These are troubling times. The economic news is terrible. Wars and the destruction of life seem never ending. Sickness afflicts our loved ones and ourselves, and human knowledge is often incapable of providing cures. Every human being has some measure of trouble. So what can this event possibly mean today? [skepticus] And what's the difference with any other given time in history? Since the human is human, and I suppose even before, its history has been an eternal battle for its survival. Wars are omnipresent, if not in your town, it does in the other side of the world. I think people suppose that the "never ending story" of wars is new because in these days we have the technology to know instantly when one war is in course in any part of the world. A possibility that was out of reach in the past. Sickness as well is omnipresent, and thanks to science and not to God in these days we don't die just because you made yourself a little scar with a knife. Then, all of this mean that we continue to be humans battling with nature to survive. For all the biblical quoting in your post I just can say it is irrelevant unless you can prove the Bible says the truth at least in the passages you quoted. |
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peterliberty 18-Dec-08, 08:48 |
Ancient celebration was plagiarized by Christians |
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peterliberty 18-Dec-08, 09:36 |
Pointless unless the passages are proved ot be true. This brief post by you, skepticus, serves to give me opportunity to express some skepticism of my own. You state, "thanks to science and not to God in these days we don't die just because you made yourself a little scar with a knife." First, I'm skeptical that science can discover anything regarding sickness or any other "scientific fact" except that which an intelligent God put in place with the order that allows its discovery. This little example of "scarring with a knife" is more the fault of the lack of discovery of the truth regarding illness by the inadequate science of the past, than to the inadequate faith of believers in the past. God is infinitely great. Science will continue to make fantastic discoveries. But all the discoveries of science cannot solve the moral dilemmas that face humankind. All of technology can be used for good or evil. What solution does science provide for that problem? None. My faith allows for scientific discovery in every area of human concern, but that discovery is limited to what the infinite God has put in place, and some mysteries, because they are rooted in God himself, will never be solved by science. My faith also provides for at least a measure of the solution of the problem of evil--a problem for which science is completely amoral and offers no solution at all. So, my friend, can you solve my skepticism? Can you find anything in science that categorically refutes the existence of God? You also state, "for all the biblical quoting in your post I just can say it is irrelevant unless you can prove the Bible says the truth at least in the passages you quoted." Well, first, I can confidently assert that billions of people through two millennia have found these passages truthful in their own experience. Some, such as you, my friend, are skeptical of their validity. Very good. I'm skeptical that you have any convincing proof that they are not true. You ask me to prove them. I plead my inability to do so to your satisfaction. Whether that is a fault of mine or yours is beyond my capability to know. I expect the Ultimate Judge of all mankind, a Judge you believe does not exist, knows. I'm skeptical that you can either prove that my passages are untruthful or that that Judge does not exist. I rest upon my own experience, limited and inadequate though it is, and the experience of multitudes of others which gives me some confidence that I am not too far off track. What is it that you rest upon, my friend? My own arrogant mind is not enough for me. Is your mind alone enough for you? Then, perhaps, you are not the atheist you believe you are. Perhaps, you have replaced the God who created all that is with yourself. Personally, I am not adequate to the task of godhood. |
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skepticus 24-Dec-08, 04:54 |
Actually, this message was written to address the concerns of people today, not to somehow point out that conditions today are either better or worse than conditions at any other time in world history. Most people have, it seems, a memory that extends little further than yesterday, and when it comes to historical memory, it is, for most people, limited to the experiences of their own lifetime and most of these are forgotten. [skepticus] Maybe this is not your case, but statements like: "These are troubling times. The economic news is terrible. Wars and the destruction of life seem never ending..." are used by religion promoters to delude their audience, taking advantage of that historical lack of memory you mention, and make they followers believe this times are specially critical and only the god of the preacher can save us. That's why I always stop that type of claims by recalling history, you know, to avoid memory problems. And just to finish this point, I want to remember you (all) that even when the pretended son of God was among his bad created creatures, the times were bad: wars, natural disasters, illness, etc. [peterliberty] First, I'm skeptical that science can discover anything regarding sickness or any other "scientific fact" except that which an intelligent God put in place with the order that allows its discovery. This little example of "scarring with a knife" is more the fault of the lack of discovery of the truth regarding illness by the inadequate science of the past, than to the inadequate faith of believers in the past. [skepticus] The first sentence rests on an unproven hypothesis, i.e., God. Then we can't go further, you first need to prove that God exists and that is, at least, all you believe regarding the "order put in place" to advance this or give some good argument, which one? I don't know, you are the believer not me, and I say this because I'm often asked to tell which argument or proof the believer needs to present, a nonsense request. Regarding the second sentence, I agree that the poor knowledge of the past allowed that people died because a little scar, but I don't see where the faith of believers fits here. To the contrary, I must say that faith didn't avoid dead from that and any other cause. Even in this times christian faith fails to avoid any calamity. [peterliberty] But all the discoveries of science cannot solve the moral dilemmas that face humankind. All of technology can be used for good or evil. What solution does science provide for that problem? None. [skepticus] I must agree, I think science is amoral. Something that has nothing to do with its power of explaining and discovery. I'm for humanist ethics, where you make, and remake if necessary, your moral decisions based on science and reason. [peterliberty] My faith allows for scientific discovery in every area of human concern, but that discovery is limited to what the infinite God has put in place, and some mysteries, because they are rooted in God himself, will never be solved by science. [skepticus] I don't know, and I believe every well educated human also doesn't know, if science is limited. Maybe or maybe not. Thus, you must provide evidence that it is limited the way you describe, then, again, you must prove that God exists an it has the characteristics you believe it has. [peterliberty] My faith also provides for at least a measure of the solution of the problem of evil--a problem for which science is completely amoral and offers no solution at all. So, my friend, can you solve my skepticism? Can you find anything in science that categorically refutes the existence of God? [skepticus] Problem of evil? What do you mean with that? And what's the solution a faith can give to it? Regarding your questions: 1) I don't know, and 2) no. And I'm going to clarify: I don't believe in the christian God because the lack of proof it exists, not because I can prove it doesn't exists. If I was supposed to believe anything just because I can't prove it doesn't exist, surely, I would be condemned to believe in many delusions: vampires, ghosts, ESP, chi, feng shui, tooth fairy, etc... you name it there lots of bunk people believe now and in the past and, I suppose, in the future. And I leave here because I need to sleep maybe in a couple of days I respond to the rest of your post. |
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chookmeista75 19-Jan-09, 16:58 |
Pointless unless the passages are proved ot be true. here is the prophecy Written by Isaiah in Jerusalem about 732 B.C.E Therefore Jehovah himself will give YOU men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Im·man′u·el. Isaiah 7:14 This is the prophecy of the birth of Jesus, *note the year. Fulfillment of that prophecy in Matthew, written in Palestine about 41 C.E 18 But the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way. During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by holy spirit before they were united. 19 However, Joseph her husband, because he was righteous and did not want to make her a public spectacle, intended to divorce her secretly. 20 But after he had thought these things over, look! Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a dream, saying: “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife home, for that which has been begotten in her is by holy spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you must call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this actually came about for that to be fulfilled which was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: 23 “Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Im·man′u·el,” which means, when translated, “With Us Is God.” 24 Then Joseph woke up from his sleep and did as the angel of Jehovah had directed him, and he took his wife home. 25 But he had no intercourse with her until she gave birth to a son; and he called his name Jesus Matthew 1:18-25 Is that not evidence enough? For it is for me, but that is not the least of it, for there is much more detail in this prophecy if you care to look, or if you know where to look. I would be happy to give it to any of you who would like to know |
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Bible prophesy? It can be safely doubted that any biblical prophesy has ever come true, for a variety of reasons. Keep in mind that the authors of the New Testament were well versed in the Old, and it is all too easy to distort or fabricate events "so that the prophesy is fulfilled." Only Mary and Joseph truly knew if she was a virgin. (Another possibility is that some other man was Jesus' father, and that she claimed divine impregnation to avoid accusations of adultery. Accusations which would result in her death by stoning.) For Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, such a claim was at best, hearsay. More likely, having convinced themselves that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, they required that he meet the Old Testament prophesies and wrote their accounts accordingly. Only one need do so; the others will copy. This is not necessarily deceitful, just deluded. If one believes the Old Testament is Holy Writ and without error, and couples that with an equally fervent belief that Jesus is the Messiah, then Jesus' birth of a virgin is an inescapable conclusion. Add to this the ancient customs from Egypt to Babylon to Persia to India of having gods born of virgins and we see the accounts of Jesus' birth as just another attempt to emphasize or enhance the divinity of a being by removing the carnality of his conception. As for Jesus himself, he may have truly believed he was the Messiah (which would explain his dying, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?") and being well-versed in the Old Testament, was aware of those prophesies which he would have to meet, and attempted to do so as much as he could. Hence, he entered Jerusalem on a donkey because Zechariah 9:9 told him to. Biblical prophesies are not valid predictions. They are blueprints, sets of instructions for any would-be messiah. |
