|
|
| From | Message | ||
|---|---|---|---|
|
 socialism vs capitalismCapitalism provides for the greatest freedom for the individual. The government that governs least governs best makes a lot of sense. You need some government to keep people safe from immoral people (murder, theft, fraud, etc) and to protect the country from other aggressive countries (national defense). The United States rose from a small poor group of colonies to the richest most successful country in history in a very short time because of the limited government/capitalist system set up by our constitution. The problems we are having today are mainly because we have abandoned the original intent of limited government ideal instituted in the constitution. |
||
|
stalhandske 07-Aug-15, 07:02 |
socialism vs capitalism <...to the richest most successful country in history > Well, "richest"? What about the current US debt? Most successful? What about the huge areas in major cities that certainly would not invite tourists? What about one of the highest numbers of prisoners/capita? What about death penalty? I myself personally love the USA, because of its diversity and its fantastic people, but I also think I can see the weaknesses. |
||
|
Another |
||
|
stalhandske 07-Aug-15, 07:14 |
important This is indeed one of the reasons I wanted to write something opposing the highly polarised post in the beginning |
||
|
Furthermore But socialism is evil! Lol |
||
|
stalhandske 07-Aug-15, 07:34 |
The point! Example: Just earlier this week I went for a major corrective medical procedure that also required 3 nights in a first class university hospital ward. I will be charged with the equivalent of ca. 100 dollars altogether! Of course (!) I am also paying some 40% tax on my pension! In my view this is the correct way - the people in society share the cost of health care! |
||
|
In my ideal of socialism, we are the government and we control what we do. In capitalism, our collective love of money controls what we do |
||
|
The police force, for example, are paid for socially. Money does not mix well with social policy |
||
|
stalhanddske Take Detroit for example. It used to be one of the greatest, most successful cities in the U.S. Democrats and their progressive, socialist, corrupt policies have destroyed that city. Many other major cities in the US are heading in the same direction for the same reasons. The US federal debt is mainly because the government has gotten too big. It has ignored the constitutional limits. Woodrow Wilson started it and Franklin D. Roosevelt institutionalized it. The percentage of GDP that the federal government consumes is not sustainable. |
||
|
stalhandske 07-Aug-15, 08:59 |
schizoidman I won't dispute that "The US federal debt is mainly because the government has gotten too big", because that is precisely how burocrazy (I know the spelling is incorrect) works. ...but to state that "capitalism" is the ultimate solution is a mistake, too. Certain key functions in society must be controlled by society - otherwise you'll have chaos. |
||
|
obsteve Who is "we"? Are you advocating pure democracy, majority rules? That is very dangerous for those who are not part of the majority. You need laws to limit power of the majority. Take for example the Occupy Wall Street group. If they ever really were 99% of the population, or even over 50%, the country would not survive. Capitalism works precisely for the reason you state. People are successful by working hard to provide goods and services that others want to have in hopes to make enough money to obtain the things that they want. Without the incentive for personal gain, few if any will be willing to put in the amount of work or risk their possessions to create a business or invent new goods for sale. That is why the government never provides goods and services efficiently; there is no profit motive. |
||
|
stalhandske 07-Aug-15, 09:25 |
I agree completely with that! But...it does not rule out governmental control of medicine, education,etc. This is were we need people to understand that what we strive for is neither pure white nor pure black. |
||
|
<<Who is "we"? Are you advocating pure democracy, majority rules? That is very dangerous for those who are not part of the majority. You need laws to limit power of the majority.>> I am a proponent of direct democracy, yes. |
||
|
I do what I do for the love of it, not the incentive for personal gain. I am not alone here |
||
|
tat3225 07-Aug-15, 13:20 |
This is relevant because when European countries describe themselves as socialist, their socialist systems actually rely on foreign capitalism and could not exist without foreign capitalism. None of these social welfare programs existed before WWII and in some cases were funded completely at their start by U.S. Treasury loans. Individual currency was obliterated by WWII and was re-established by the U.S. government and backed by the U.S. dollar. This is in contrast with USSR socialism in which everything really was produced by and in the Soviet Union. Obviously, Europe has a lot of imports and invests money in foreign markets. Switzerland simply hides money from elsewhere and skims off the top. Things of that nature. The VA is the closest thing to socialism in the United States and as such has all of the associated problems. A major point of contention between moderate republicans and liberals is the fact that liberals will think that they are backing socialism when in reality they are backing a pile of something else. They have no idea what's going on and no amount of explaining or putting actual paperwork in front of them changes anything. So many liberals had no idea why their taxes shot up after the capital gains taxes from onamacare went into effect. Like they genuinely had no idea that this was part of obamacare. One person interviewed by the Howard stern show on the street in NY said it must have been the GOP that raised taxes because Obama wouldn't do that. This isn't just one isolated case. Its your standard bread and butter liberal. |
||
|
government jobs Education and medicine is better in private hands. The cost of education in my state goes up faster than any other item in the state budget and is now the biggest expense the state has. Yet the quality continues to decline every year. The same is true in other states as well I suspect. Home schooling is booming and kids who are home schooled consistently outperform even the top students from the public schools. How many people will be willing to work and study and spend the money necessary to become a medical doctor if the government controls how much money you are compensated for the work you do? Obamacare has increased the costs of providing care because of all the additional federal paperwork required. Many doctors are considering getting out of the field because they cannot make a living at it anymore. Others are closing their practices and becoming employees of hospital groups in an attempt to survive. obsteve, I am glad the you have a job that you love to do. Most people do not. Would you continue to do it if your pay was cut in half? Many people who start businesses put in 80 hour work weeks in the hope of obtaining success. How many people would do that if their compensation was limited byt the government? |
||
|
<<This is relevant because when European countries describe themselves as socialist, their socialist systems actually rely on foreign capitalism and could not exist without foreign capitalism.>> There are plenty of countries that mix socialism and capitalism quite well. I don't think it's an either/or situation Schizoid <<Home schooling is booming and kids who are home schooled consistently outperform even the top students from the public schools>> Source? |
||
|
home schooling A co-worker of mine is a mentor working for a public school in the area on robot design competitions. He complained to me about how all the competitions are dominated by home school teams. My oldest son attended Rice University. During the family day, I talked with other students in his incoming class. My son was the only one that graduated high school from a public school. Every other student I talked to was either home schooled or went to a private school. It was a a small sample size admittedly, and most were from private schools, but there were several home schooled students. This was 15 years ago. Also, 5 other students that my son graduated with (public school) also applied to Rice. None of them were accepted. I know a lot more people who home school now than I did 15 years ago. There is a large network of parents that help each other and plan group outings and form scholastic teams for competitions. |
||
|
stalhandske 07-Aug-15, 22:56 |
Education, medicine and "socialism" I think the best solution is to have both. Also, education and/or medicine need not be run by government - but they should be controlled by government to secure quality. <<<This is relevant because when European countries describe themselves as socialist, their socialist systems actually rely on foreign capitalism and could not exist without foreign capitalism.>>> Tat, please name one European country that describes itself as socialist (and I don't mean a country that is described as socialist by some Americans ) |
||
|
Wealth is Power The government IS the people. "We have met the government, and he is us!". In Facism, government controls the major industry. Unfettered capitalism becomes just the opposite. Look up "bussiness plot" in US history, and the writings of General Smedley Butler. History shows how miners suffered, as did most of the American middle class, when business runs unchecked. Love Canal. Even Republicans recognized this danger, back in the day when there were wise Republicans. Teddy Roosevelt busted trusts. Lincoln and Eisenhower both warned of the danger. |
||
|
Socialism Nonsense. German health care became socialized in the late 1800s, and remained so ever since. US education was socialized very early, back when people realized the value of a good education. Americans now believe the can do a better job themselves, and home skull they kids. "And on the seventh day God created the bolt-action Remington rifle. So man could hunt the dinosaur. And the homely-sexual." "I teach my kids the basic. Reeding, riting, religion, and marksmanship." |
||
|
government role Several years ago, a girl in a local high school started a business braiding hair. It was so successful that she got an award from the FBLA (Future Business Leaders of America). The award, however, brought her business to the attention of the government. They shut her business down, because according to the law, you have to have certified training and a license to do any job that involves other people's hair. The Keystone pipeline is another good example of government overreach. We have oil pipelines all over the country. They are an excellent, cheap, and safe way to transport oil; much better than by railroad. I do not have a problem with the government having laws that penalize a company if their pipeline leaks and damages the environment, but to even have a say in whether it is built or not is not right. |
||
|
Taxi Service Are they not? I am a little surprised you are coming out so strongly against the rights of local citizens to govern themselves as they see fit. This is not the standard conservative/libertarian political philosophy to which I am accustomed. |
||
|
|
||
|
taxi I sited the local example just to show that government power is corrupt just as much or more than business at all levels. You talk about voting out the bad politicians. That is a joke. The Republican and Democrat parties have firm control over who can have a chance to even run for office, let alone win. One possible solution is term limits. There are plenty of smart capable people in this country that could serve a term in the House or Senate and then go back to their private sector job. We don't need "professional" politicians. It would be a lot harder for corporations to buy influence if the people in the congress kept changing every two and six years. I would eliminate congressional pensions and not allow congressmen to engage in insider trading in the stock market as well. |
||
|
Attracting Good People |
||
|
good people If you reduce the power of the government back to the original intent of the constitution there would be less incentive for the unscrupulous people you fear to run in the first place. The constitution would limit the power to do damage and the term limit would also curtail their ability to do harm. They would still have to be voted in and, hopefully, the voters will be wary of the people running with wrong motives. obsteve says that he does his job because he loves what he does, not for the pay. Maybe he would run and you can vote for him. |
