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Fighting Warriors vs Rybka (Part 6)

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omacron2
29-Dec-07, 13:15

Rybka plays 19...axb4

Something to think about my friends and the good news that Nat is back in touch makes matters better. Our prayers have been answered.

hjemcall
30-Dec-07, 02:38

20. axb4

Actually, I had expected Rybka to double the rooks first, to get hold of the a-file after the pawn exchange on b4. For some reason Rybka plays 19...axb4 rightaway, and now we can prevent it to control the a-file: 20. axb4 (and if) Rxa1 21. Rxa1 Ra8 22. Rxa8+ Bxa8. With reduced 'troops' on both sides the situation looks kind of drawish, but Black has a weak bishop and the white pieces seem a bit more active.

I'm not at all thrilled by the alternative 20. Nxb4. It would allow something like 20... Nxc5 21. dxc5 Bxa1 22. Rxa1, and I think that's rather risky: after that our pawn structure is simply dreadful. Even without that combination the knight on b4 (apart from some pressure on c6) creates an isolated pawn pair that doesn't look too strong. Without sound reasons I wouldn't consider it.

@ Oisin, about these "accumulated ratings":
You're quite right of course, and I was well aware of that, but I hadn't meant the whole thing very seriously. Besides, the "average rating" (of a small group) does not necessarily make more sense: imagine only Bob would have had a different opinion, than the result would have been something like 1660-2125 (present rating). The figures may be "accurate", but they don't mean that much, do they? (Either way, of course, I admit.)

tjbuege
30-Dec-07, 21:08

Current Position

game

qistnix
30-Dec-07, 22:17

This looks like a forced line: 20.axb4 Rda8 21.Rxa7 Rxa7 22.Nde5 Nxe5 23.dxe5 and the position looks very drawish indeed. Maybe after we complete this line we can offer a draw to Rybka?

tjbuege
30-Dec-07, 22:40

Is there any question...

...to 20 axb4? If not, lets make the move and see where Rybka plays next. I agree with Martin that Rybka will likely play 20 ... Rda8. After that we either continue with 21 Rxa7 or move our rook off the a1 file, but I don't think that is a good idea. Any comments?

searcoid
31-Dec-07, 09:38

axb4

I don't like it.

It opens up the a file for black to our disadvantage. We'd rather not concede that surely?

Why not 20.Nxd4 ? Or 20.a4 ? I'd rather see a line that could follow from this, as I think the aforementioned line from 20.axb4 weakens our position. Even so, if we do follow the 20.axb4 line, I'd rather see 23.fxe5 rather than 23.dxe5.

More thoughts please. I'd like to understand this better.

Oisin

@ Herman - a bit of banter is always welcome!

qistnix
31-Dec-07, 11:36

@ Oisin

You say that you think 20.axb4 weakens our position. Can you be more specific as in what way?

20.Nxb4 is playable (20...Nxc5!? 21.dxc5 Bxa1 22.Rxa1 leaves white with more active pieces (5 vs. 3), so I don't think that's very good for black) but has the drawback of a remaining weak a-pawn on which black can pile up.

Giving away the a-file is not a very big issue since black can't do much with it, and white can easily challenge the posession.

In my suggested line 23.fxe5 is also a playable move, but takes away white's option of a pawn break with g2-g4 and f4-f5. Ofcourse that's a thing that might occur in the far endgame.

tjbuege
02-Jan-08, 16:11

Hmmm...tough one. Martin presents an interesting line with Rybka's possible 20 ... Nxc5 move. I think what I don't like about that line is how it leaves us with two isolated pawns, as previously mentioned by Herman. Also, the d-file looks much too weak. Actually, the entire center looks problematic. Our pawn structure would be a mess, and Rybka's pawns very menacing. Here's the diagram after that line:

I know it's a few moves off, but if we follow the proposed 20. axb4 line, instead of playing 22. Nde5 what about 22. h4? There was some talk earlier about pushing our pawns on the king side. Also, with the a-file open, our king will need an escape, I think. Just another thought.

My vote is still for 20. axb4.

searcoid
03-Jan-08, 08:49

@Martin

I just don't like the idea of black having control over the a file, particularly with our king in a tight spot where he is. Easily remedied, I know, but it sets us back a move having to deal with it. On the other hand, what about something like 20. a4, inviting ..bxa4 21. Bxa4. Surely better to force Rybka to consolidate the a file himself if he wants it that bad? Then we can still play 21. axb5 and consolidate our pawn structure (what we have left of it) if something else happens.

I don't have as much analytic prowess as others here, but I'm not convinced with 20. axb4 yet.

Oisin

hjemcall
03-Jan-08, 13:27

@ Oisin

After 20. a4 bxa4 we can't play 21. Bxa4 because we'd lose the bishop (and/or more): 21... Rda8 threatens to capture the bishop and we cannot pull it back (22. Bb3/Bc2 Rxa1 23. Rxa1 Rxa1+ costs a rook) or defend it (22. Nb2 Nxc5 23. dxc5 Bxb2 24. Ra2 Bc3 costs two pawns and the bishop). So in this line we'd have to play 21. Rxa4 instead, but after 21. Rxa4 Rxa4
22. Bxa4 Ra8 we are one pawn down, and whether we can get it back without a cost remains to be seen, with the black queen and rook (possibly/probably) invading our queen side.

But all of that may not even matter. What if Black plays 20... Rda8 rightaway? We can't take on b5: e.g. 21. axb5 Rxa1 22. Rxa1 Rxa1+ 23. Nfe1 cxb5, or 21. axb5 Rxa1 22. b6 Rxe1+ 23. Nfxe1 Nxb6 24. cxb6 Qxb6. What else? 21. Nxb4 might be risky: 21. Nxb4 Nxc5 22. dxc5 Bxa1 23. Rxa1 bxa4, again, one pawn dawn and a shattered pawn structure.

So, like Martin, I'd stick to 20. axb4: it leaves our pawn structure intact and doesn't give Black much on the a-file.

searcoid
04-Jan-08, 08:22

Thanks Herman for clarifying

I see... Right so. 20. axb4 seems the only sensible option so. Shall we?

gameguy8
04-Jan-08, 10:12

Following Along

It is really interesting to follow the thought processes leading to a move. I'm really impressed as I have been observing. All of my thoughts were contained in previous postings so I have nothing to add but as searcoid says, shall we?

gibsonscot
06-Jan-08, 22:00

I'm with you 20. axb4

rowdyrooks
07-Jan-08, 17:39

axb4 !

is the logical move here,as aforementioned keeping our pawn chain together,and defending the open a file should not be difficult. Lets make the move !

Harry,,,,,,,,,

omacron2
08-Jan-08, 00:27

Make a move

Can we please keep this game moving, please make a move

b123
08-Jan-08, 02:31

axb4

axb4 played. What will Rybka do?

omacron2
08-Jan-08, 03:14

Rybka plays 20...Rda8

Also I have given the following conditional moves 21.Rxa7 Rxa7 22.g3 [worth giving some consideration too] 22...Ra2 So it is over to you.

hjemcall
08-Jan-08, 15:53

(21. Rxa7 Rxa7 22. g3 Ra2) 23. Re2 ...?

I suppose the idea (after 21. Rxa7 Rxa7 22. g3 [good move, I think] Ra2) is 23. Re2 Ra1+ 24. Kg2, to be followed (soon) by h4 and/or N?e5 and/or Ng5? Alternatively we might consider moves like 23. Bb1 (Ra4 24. Bc2 Ra2 etc.) or 23. Bb3 (Ra3 24. Bc2 and black has a tempo) or 23. Bd1 (but I'd say d1-h5 is not the right diagonal for the bishop) or 23. Rc1 (but I think the rook should stay on the e-file). None of the alternatives can convince me, so I think 23. Re2 is a sensible choice.

An interesting point is whether Rybka can or will attempt to move its queen to the a-file, too, e.g. via Bc8 (might come in handy to support e6) and Qa7 etc. We should look at that and be prepared: if Rybka can keep us busy there, we may not be able to use our troops for a breakthrough, if feasible, on the king side. If Rybka cannot do much on the a-file, it will not move its queen there but use it to defend its centre and/or kingside.

tjbuege
08-Jan-08, 21:46

Current Board and Thoughts

game

Is not 21 Rxa7 a forced move? We cannot allow Rykba to pile up two rooks *and* a queen, so I think it's in our best interest to trade off one of the rooks.

As to Bob's suggested 22 g3, I really like the looks of that move. It serves several purposes, I believe: 1) support for the f4 pawn, freeing our queen and d3 knight for other tasks; 2) opening an escape for our king; and 3) support for the eventual push of our pawn to h4.

Herman suggests a couple of lines that lead to a draw. While a draw against Rybka could be considered a victory for us, I vote we keep on. After all...we're the Fighting Warriors!

I am a bit concerned with the possibility that Rybka will place her queen on the a-file. I'm currently unable to see a way to deal with that.

So...while we consider future moves...can we make the 21 Rxa7 move in short order? Open for discussion as always!

Tim

hjemcall
09-Jan-08, 01:21

@ Tim (and every other FW, of course)

I have little doubt about the whole line here, that is 21. Rxa7 Rxa7 22. g3 and it seems likely that Rybka will indeed continue with 22... Ra2. So I would go ahead with these (white) moves without delay.

As to your concern about the black queen taking the a-file route into the white defences, I think we needn't worry too much. Look at the situation after 22... Ra2. If we play 23. Re2 as I think Bob had in mind, we keep our bishop on the best spot it can have, with one eye on a4 (and b3) and the other on b1-h7, both for defensive purposes (b1) and possibly also offensive ones (f5, g6, h7). It means that no rook or queen can move to a4, b3 or b1. Furthermore, the knight defends b4 and controls b2, so that square is off limits, too. Also, Ra1 with the intention to push it to a neigbouring file and back it up with Qa1, is rather pointless, because we control all the (other) files on the 1st row via Bc2, Nd3, Qe3, Nf3 and Kg2 (after Ra1+, of course). It follows that Rybka can only hope for something like Ra2 and Qa3, but, considering the b-file is off limits too, to do what exactly? The only way it can hope to 'achieve' something is by some sort of sacrifice (e.g. Nxc5 or Ra4/Rxc2...) but at this stage I don't see that our defences couldn't cope with that and/or that Rybka might have time for all that. After all, we won't be doing nothing in the mean time (h4-h5 perhaps, or - I keep thinking there may be something there as well - Ng5 [with possibly Nxf7 and Qxe6]).

I suspect Rybka will not want to do much on the a-file, unless it can keep us too busy to carry out our offensive ambitions. That is, indeed, the other side of the coin, and the main reason for any concern: our pieces are in an excellent position to meet with a rook and queen visit on the a-file, but if it means that we can't move them or have them support our offensive actions elsewhere, we're sort of stuck. However, I would not rule out the possibility that we might get the opportunity (a few tempi may do) to lower or even give up our defences on the queen side to force a breakthrough on Black's king side.

Then again, I could be wrong too, of course. But that's where all of you guys come in, I may hope ...

To sum it all up:
21. Rxa7, and if 22... Rxa7:
22. g3, and if 22... Ra2:
23. Re2, and if 23... Ra1+:
24. Kg2

Finally, to all participants/readers/commentators and brave Warriors: can we please speed up things a little and not spend more than a few days per move? Thanks!

b123
09-Jan-08, 01:48

Okay guys, we reach some interesting position again.

I want to ask why Re2? Why not Rc1? Only for controlling the e file and in particular e5? Or are there other reasons I missed?

Bart

qistnix
09-Jan-08, 02:08

Not so fast guys; I didn't even look at the previous moves...

There's plenty alternatives here besides Re2. Bart mentioned Rc1, but also Qc1 or Bb3 look like reasonable alternatives. I haven't made up my mind yet...

hjemcall
09-Jan-08, 02:49

Alternatives

I would imagine that Rc1 or Qc1 are purely or mainly defensive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to keep all offensive options open, I think we need R & Q on the e-file. On the other hand, Qc1 threatens Bb3, so there Black has to be careful. As to Bb3 as an alternative for Re2 and the other suggestions, I don't quite see what the bishop can do there, and it can be 'engaged' again by a black Ra3. Do I take it that that should be met by Nde5 or something?

Another point, which I may have overlooked so far, is that maybe it's us who can 'do' something on the a-file. With Qc1 & Bb3 we could chase the rook away. Could we then continue with something like Qb2 & Ra1? I suppose it's worth a thought: can we take over the a-file, and 'proceed' from there? At least the black queen side pieces seem to have a little less room to move (esp. the bishop).

So now I'm a bit puzzled. I think 23. Re2 is a good move, as it enables us to sufficiently defend our (whole) queen side and keep a strong grip on the e-file at the same time. The idea then is that we should try to make some advance on the king side. On the other hand, it may be better to slightly loosen our grip on the e-file and work our way to the a-file, or to take a more defensive attitude on our queen side. I can't tell right now. But I would like to hear a bit more about the ideas, plans, strategies behind these other suggestions. I'm perfectly willing to accept that they are "reasonable", but why exactly then?

omacron2
16-Jan-08, 00:44

Lets have a move

This game is so bogged down and I am seeing a pattern of over analysis [which can be done in a post mortem]. So no postings since the 9th Jan, I am in danger of painting my walls just to watch the paint dry.

Regards Bob.

hjemcall
16-Jan-08, 09:18

High time we made up our minds!

Okay, I expressed my preference (23. Re2) more than a week ago and provided some reasons for that choice. Then some alternatives were suggested (23. Rc1, 23. Qc1, 23. Bb3), but it didn't go any further than that: so far, nobody has made a choice or provided arguments for any of them. Of course, that doesn't say anything about their quality, but we should make up our minds and no votes means ... no votes. Therefore, I suggest we move on and play 23. Re2. If anyone feels that we should do something else, fine with me, but then please come up with a (more or less) 'reasoned' alternative now, i.e. in the next couple of hours.

tjbuege
16-Jan-08, 09:57

My Apologies

I've been really swamped lately with lots of games, and other activities outside of GameKnot. I haven't lost interest...just running low on available time. If you can wait another 24 hours or so, I'll make a concerted effort to give this a look this evening. I'm still leaning towards Re2, but I just haven't had time to look closely at the alternatives.

Tim