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From	Message
walkingman 08-Feb-08, 19:51	Does anything happen by chance? According to the Bible, MANY THINGS are left to chance. God directs and controls as much as He chooses to direct and control, but much of the fabric of human history is indeed left to chance, circumstance and human decision. Ecclesiastes 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but TIME AND CHANCE happeneth to them all. Luke 10:31 And by CHANCE there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 1st Kings 22 34And a certain man drew a bow AT A VENTURE, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded. 35And the battle increased that day: and the king was stayed up in his chariot against the Syrians, and died at even: and the blood ran out of the wound into the midst of the chariot. 36And there went a proclamation throughout the host about the going down of the sun, saying, Every man to his city, and every man to his own country. 37So the king died, and was brought to Samaria; and they buried the king in Samaria. This last quote was an example of a random act that actually fulfilled the Divine decree against King Ahab, that insured that Ahab would certainly die in that battle, by one means or another. God was not required in this particular case to specifically engineer Ahab's demise, because a "random shot" by an archer accomplished God's will. It was an arrow shot "at a venture", a "random" shot according to the Biblical record. This all speaks to the question of hope, and how that the Bible does in no way support a fully predetermined future for anyone. Hope remains for everyone, according to the Bible. Blessings in Christ Paul
vanir 13-Jun-08, 20:58	Yes and No. Many things are indeed left to chance, but the outcome is determined long before the situation occurs.
walkingman 14-Jun-08, 10:56	Hmmmm? Left to chance = PREDETERMINATION of future outcomes? Incoherent statement IMO. Regards Paul
vanir 14-Jun-08, 11:55	God knows all. God gives us the freedom of choice, but He knows which choice we will take. This does not mean that we have no freedom of choice, but since God is all knowing, He knows which choice we will take; from things as simple as what we will wear tomorrow to things as big as whether or not we will steal that camera that we really want.
walkingman 15-Jun-08, 09:24	God knows our thoughts and intentions only. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Deuteronomy 8 "2And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no." Whether or not you or I would steal the camera, can only be determined with 100% certainty if we are put to the test personally. God knows better that we ourselves what we are likely to do, but we still will make the final call ourselves. God is a very informed and interested bystander in such circumstances. He searches our hearts in such situations ALL THE TIME. If He already knew every outcome, He would hardly need to search our hearts and test us as He so often does. Blessings Paul
dieselengine9 16-Jun-08, 19:21	Paul I just want to say that I have been really blessed by the "predetermined" theme in some of the threads lately. I had read every verse you have referenced before now, but have not understood the context of them until now. Thank you and God Bless you, Landon
walkingman 17-Jun-08, 04:27	Thank you Landon. I'm just sharing the blessing! To me, discovering that the Bible itself categorically refutes the notion of blind fate, was one of the mountaintops of my own walk with God. Chess players like ourselves have minds that are bound to a large degree by logic and reason. To finally discover that the Bible is in complete 100% harmony with itself on this issue, and that there really is GENUINE HOPE for EVERY SINGLE SOUL in this world, has been the JOY AND REJOICING on my heart! It all fits with reason, logic, and most importantly, with the Holy Scriptures themselves. WOW! I KNOW now that there is HOPE FOR EVERYONE, and now with God's help I can PROVE IT too! What a comfort to my soul this hope really is! EVERY SOUL now becomes a WINNABLE soul! Blessings in Christ Paul Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich UNTO ALL that call upon him.
vanir 20-Jun-08, 19:59	God's book Psalm 139:16 "All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." This whole psalm should be read to better understand my view, but this is the key verse.
walkingman 21-Jun-08, 18:05	Check out a few more versions to get a balance. Psalm 139:16(NIV) 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. _____________________________________________________________________________ Psalm 139:16 (King James Version) 16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. _____________________________________________________________________________ Psalm 139:16 (Darby Translation) (John Darby was a predeterminist, BTW) 16Thine eyes did see my unformed substance, and in thy book all [my members] were written; [during many] days were they fashioned, when [as yet] there was none of them. _____________________________________________________________________________ Some versions of the Bible do indeed support your view in this passage in particular. However, there are translations that indicate that this verse is talking about the formation of the Psalmists actual body (seeing the whole, reading the very DNA I suppose) before the Psalmist was born. That is the reading that makes the most sense for me. I do not know the original languages so I can go no further than a comparative study of the translations. Given the possible variations of meaning that the different versions seen to allow on this verse, I would be very sure to support any view claiming God's 100% foreknowledge of all future events on much more than this one verse. Even if the meaning is allowed which you desire for this passage, it still would only prove that God had a foreordained plan for Davids life which I would be likely willing to grant in any case. It would not IMO, be proof that God has 100% exhaustive foreknowledge of all future events. The verse might also be speaking to the question of "length, or number of days" that God had given to the Psalmist. Biblically speaking, those so called "numbered" days can be "shortened" by actions which we ourselves might take. The "numbering" then if it be the standard Biblical measure of "threescore and ten (70)", is by no means intended to be taken as a pre-ordained pre-measured, fully foreknown life history. Otherwise it would never be possible to do what the following verse suggests, "die BEFORE our time". Ecclesiastes 7:17 (KJV) Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die BEFORE THY TIME? Blessings in Christ Paul
vanir 21-Jun-08, 19:09	God is unfathomable. How are we supposed to know when are time is. Ecclesiastes may be referring to when WE think our time should be. Also, I want to see some of those versions as well.
walkingman 22-Jun-08, 08:47	Biblical teaching on time is clear & fathomable IMO. Isaiah 38:5 (KJV) Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will ADD UNTO THY DAYS fifteen years. Daniel 4:27 (KJV) Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a LENGTHENING of thy tranquillity. Psalm 102:23 (KJV) He weakened my strength in the way; he SHORTENED my days. Proverbs 10:27(KJV) The fear of the LORD PROLONGETH days: but the years of the wicked shall be SHORTENED. God's timetable is flexible to a degree. He alters it on occasion due to things that we have done or have not done. Many more passages than the Ecclesiastes passage attest to this fact. I've just given a few more above. Blessings Paul
vanir 28-Jun-08, 12:37	But not always. You can't take a few examples of people who did good or bad and repayed them back in kind, and say that that applies to all of us. God knew that He was going to do that long before it happened, but He may have a different plan for us. That their days were going to be lengthened or shortened was already written into God's book long before they happened. God allowed room for chance, so that the blessing/punishment did not neccessarily have to happen, but He knew it would. He didn't actually add onto their days until the good thing they did happened.
antinephilehi 28-Jun-08, 13:31	Predestination Honer thy Father and Mother that you may long live in this country. At least that's what it says in the Swedish Bible. To me God doesn't really chance His mind ,but rather it is the blessing that is conditioned upon obedient to the law.
vanir 29-Jun-08, 18:54	I agree. That is actually a good point.
walkingman 02-Jul-08, 04:31	I stand by my previous posts. I would like to make a few comments about predestination however. I'll make those comments in a new thread entitled, "Those Other Sheep". Blessings in Christ Paul
vanir 26-May-09, 18:55	I concur. My views regarding predetermination/predestination have changed, and I now agree with your previous comments. Thank you for sharing!
walkingman 26-May-09, 20:35	You're most welcome brother. Because of this truth, it follows that there is genuine HOPE for everyone on this planet! What a BLESSED thing to come to this knowledge as well. Now we can pray and know with all certainty that we can (God's will permitting), make a real difference here in the world. The possibilities are endless! Blessings in Christ Paul B.

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