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solascriptura 27-Apr-09, 21:15 |
 Those Striving Onesshall not be able." Luke 13:24 These are hardly things that Jesus would say to unredeemed/unregenerate souls if indeed such souls were incapable of "laboring to believe" or "striving to enter in". The very fact that Jesus says that "many......will seek to enter in", should be proof enough to those who would claim "solascriptura" as their personal motto, that the Calvinistic notion of "total depravity", is a totally overblown distortion of the real facts of Scripture. Such a notion is a grave error, totally injurious to the cause of the gospel, and must therefore be renounced and abandoned. End of quote. Let us observe more eisegesis by Paul and the Scriptures. Luke13:24, there is proof positive that all unredeemed/unregenerate souls have the capability to enter, or at least that is what Paul would lead us to believe. The fact is just like those in John 6:28 many seek t he Lord for all the wrong reasons and all of their striving will be to no avail. For those who claim solascriptura, they rely on what the Word says, not what a teaching Pope and his teaching Magisterium would have us believe contrary to the clear teachings of the bible. We stand on the firm foundation of God’s word, not the so called Prophet uttering from Salt Lake City. Paul: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that all should come to repentance. “ End of quote 2 Peter 3:9, there is the one that holds the key Paul tells us. Yes, it be true that the Lord is not willing that any should perish, any of the elect, any of those of whom the Father has drawn to Him, those whom He will in no way cast out. The Lord is longsuffering so the sheep of His pasture will know His voice and come to Him. So yes, it is true that the Lord is not willing that any should perish. Paul: Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely." End of quote The key point is WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water. The problem is man, in his natural unredeemed /unregenerate state will not choose to do so. Clearly he is dead in his sins and trespasses. He is spiritually dead, undiscerning, blind and totally bound in sin. Where do I get such an outrageous claim? From scripture…where else?? He is dead in sins Gen 2:16-17; Jnn 3:5-7; Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13 He is blinded and corrupt in his heart Gen 6:5; Gen 8:21; Ecc 9:3; Jer 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Jnn 3:19-21; Rom 8:7-8; Eph 4:17-19; Eph 5:8 So far Paul has not proven the Reformed Baptist and Presbyterian preachers in the world wrong. In fact we see mostly a reading into scripture an idea, a doctrine condemned by church councils across the span of centuries. We see an abandonment of Protestant values and foundation of the Reformers tossed to the side. We see Pelagianism, Semi-Plagiarism, Arminianism being fancied as rendering of scripture when in fact it is a distortion leading the Christian into a place where God is not honored but the mighty will of man is. That of course is a different subject though related should not be opened in this thread concerning the depravity of men To the reader be peace, glory and joy in the name of Christ, Len |
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Interesting We have to wait for the Lord to take the first step.(If I understand you correct). Then the consequences is that God will create some to be saved and some to be dammed. Where do I find a loving caring God in that? (or will all man be given the grace of the Lords first step?) Where do we find salvation,in the Bible or the philosophies of man? Sometimes we see us as real Christians only if we accept the teachings of councils.(Like Nicce). It seems to me like security in numbers. The real important question is .Will everyone get the chance to be saved,and if not...why? |
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So far so good (re:flood situation at home) yet however. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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Flood threat has passed! Thank God! God: " Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Romans 4:3 Abraham exercised saving faith in God as he obeyed and did what God had asked of him, BEFORE God credited him with "true righteousness" from above. This order is so very important here folks. Len's whole system of belief falls here at this point. Calvinism perverts the whole order of Salvation. They simply MUST have "new life/righteousness" before the exercise of faith, in SPITE OF THE PLAIN WITNESS OF SCRIPTURE which testifies otherwise! Genesis 22 " 9And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. 10And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Notice how God the Father had to TEST Abraham's faith, BEFORE He fully accepted him. If God gave the righteousness AND the faith beforehand, whatever was God testing that faith for again? Was God uncertain that the faith Len alleges God "gifted" to Abraham, had somehow become corrupted? Why do the Scriptures teach us here that God only knew what was really in Abraham's heart, by this very real test (offering his son Issac on Mt. Moriah)? James 2:21-23 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." At the end of the day, Len MUST rely on tradition and human authority to make his case. He has, and he will continue to say words do not mean what they say, he will be forced eventually to ascribe MULTIPLE meanings for the plain simple words of Scripture (faith, saved, etc.) when his position is shown to be in error. Here is proof of that. Len: So far Paul has not proven the Reformed Baptist and Presbyterian preachers in the world wrong. In fact we see mostly a reading into scripture an idea, a doctrine condemned by church councils across the span of centuries. We see an abandonment of Protestant values and foundation of the Reformers tossed to the side. Len's ultimate source of authority can only be at the end of the day, Reformed preachers (and their millions of adherents as he pointed out on the previous page), church councils held down over the centuries (tradition), and a general appeal to Protestantism. Odd that he should so lean in a "Bible Database Club", whose explicit mandate is to provide "answers to the great questions of life", from the BIBLE alone. Len: "Paul seems to consistently confuse the saving faith that the Christian has, the faith in which the Christian claims the free gift of salvation with dead faith, faith which is hallow and bears no fruit." Len tries here to slip the bonds of the passage in James where as pointed out earlier in this post, the faith was exercised BEFORE the righteousness was imputed. He decries the word faith in James as speaking of DEAD FAITH!??? Really? Abraham's faith was a DEAD faith??? How so brother Len? :-[ Len has yet to address the verses I left with him that similarly deal with the Biblical order of Salvation (faith before righteousness/new life) vs the Calvinistic/Reformed order (new life before faith). "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou SHALT (future tense here Len) be saved". I'll save Len the time and trouble here by simply telling you all in advance what Len will say here. Just as he tries to do with the word "FAITH", Len will also be forced to resort to "multiple meanings" for the word "SAVED". How else can he preserve his position? There is no other way for Len to do it. Period! Who will be Len's guide then to help decide which Scriptures can and cannot be taken at face value, and which words of Scripture must be fractured into multiple meanings in order to blunt the force of them? The reformed traditions, past and present of course! If you "choose" to be a Calvinist, then that is where you must really put your faith and trust at the end of the day. For me, it is truly "solascripture". I am content with that and none else. I don't need millions to stand with me to be secure and safe in such a position. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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solascriptura 04-May-09, 16:53 |
Reply to antinephilehi Point 1: antinephilehi If Solascrptura is right,then we cant do anything to help us in our "fallen state". I have been incorrect in lots of things, scripture is never wrong. JN 6:44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. Scripture states that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. Draw does not mean to entice or woo, but rather bring them directly to Jesus 65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." Jesus again reaffirms that no one comes to Him unless it is granted by the Father. Man in his fallen state does not and can not come to Christ except by intervention by the Father. Point 2: antinephilehi We have to wait for the Lord to take the first step.(If I understand you correct). Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, Eph2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), Col2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, The scriptures paint a picture of destitute man being saved by a mighty and great Lord by grace. Man can never save himself. Salvation is always by God and God alone. Point 3: antinephilehi Then the consequences is that God will create some to be saved and some to be dammed. Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?' Cleary the Lord takes not pleasure in the death and destruction of the wicked. He makes a call to all men to repent of their ways. Yet we see natural man spurning and turning his back on God. Ps51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. Ps58:33The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. By my very nature of being born a son of Adam I am condemned. My sin is inherited, then of course throughout my life I add to it. Rom5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Rom5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. My only hope is by the obedience of the One, I am made righteous by His obedience. I am dammed because of Adam, saved by Christ. Some are saved by Christ, some are dammed by the nature of Adam. God dismisses them from His presence just as He did Adam and Eve from the Garden. Point 3: antinephilehi Where do I find a loving caring God in that? (or will all man be given the grace of the Lords first step?) The love and care of God is that by Christ we are saved by His effectual work on the cross, we are forgiven through his Faith, not ours. Our faith is to believe in Him, not our ability to reach out to Him. If our salvation hinges on our reaching out for salvation, then salvation is not of grace and mercy, but by merit, our merit not His. Point 4: antinephilehi Where do we find salvation, in the Bible or the philosophies of man? Sometimes we see us as real Christians only if we accept the teachings of councils.(Like Nicce). It seems to me like security in numbers. The real important question is .Will everyone get the chance to be saved, and if not...why? The answer is of course salvation is not found in the Bible or the philosophies be they true or vain of man, but rather salvation is found only in the Person of Christ. We are saved by His mercy and grace and by no other means. Words of life are held in the Bible just as some philosophies which repeat the great truths taught by scripture. Yet the Pharisees proved one can read and study scripture all their lives and never know salvation. JN14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. 1Cor2:14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. Will everyone get the chance to be saved? Can the natural (unsaved sinner) demand of God to be saved? If so salvation is no longer of grace. Salvation is no longer by mercy. Again The world (natural man) can not receive or even see the Lord unless granted by the Father. Faith, which is given to us, repentance which is granted all come after our natural man hearts are changed from stone to flesh…or at least according to Ezekiel Ezekiel 11:19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Without the change of heart in the natural man by the Holy Spirit, men are lost forever in their sins. This takes place prior to their natural man’s “receiving” Christ. His ability to do some comes from God Himself. Blessings and thank you for some very good questions. Len |
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solascriptura 04-May-09, 16:55 |
Paul Blessings, Len |
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Everyone does indeed have opportunity to be saved! All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Those sheep that already belonged to the Father (Jews and Gentiles that had faith in God prior to Christ beginning to teach all men to believe in Him), were DESTINED to become believers the moment they heard the message of Christ. They were already the Father's sheep, and the Father said that he would give all of His sheep to the Son. Those persons who had not yet believed in God, were welcome to come and be saved as well! ALL were welcome during the ministry of Christ, and ALL continue to be welcome to this very day Antinephilehi! Isaiah 55: " 6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." Blessings in Christ Paul |
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solascriptura 11-May-09, 08:51 |
Paul's Theology part 1 Abraham exercised saving faith in God as he obeyed and did what God had asked of him, BEFORE God credited him with "true righteousness" from above. This order is so very important here folks. Len's whole system of belief falls here at this point. Calvinism perverts the whole order of Salvation. They simply MUST have "new life/righteousness" before the exercise of faith, in SPITE OF THE PLAIN WITNESS OF SCRIPTURE which testifies otherwise! Genesis 22 " 9And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. 10And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Notice how God the Father had to TEST Abraham's faith, BEFORE He fully accepted him. If God gave the righteousness AND the faith beforehand, whatever was God testing that faith for again? Was God uncertain that the faith Len alleges God "gifted" to Abraham, had somehow become corrupted? Why do the Scriptures teach us here that God only knew what was really in Abraham's heart, by this very real test (offering his son Issac on Mt. Moriah)? Start of part 1 Paul: Abraham exercised saving faith in God as he obeyed and did what God had asked of him We seem to be making progress here. I have to admit I AGREE WITH PAUL!! It was SAVING FAITH IN GOD that was exercised by Abraham. “THE PLAIN WITNESS OF SCRIPTURE” is absolutely true, man cannot, never and under no circumstances please God without faith. The Reformers dubbed it Sola Fide. The answer still is without a doubt without saving faith, Abraham would never have believed God, little alone to the extent to offer his son on the altar. Let us go back and review what really happened. Genesis Chapter 18 17The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19"For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham (T)what He has spoken about him." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Verse 19 For I have chosen him”. The picture Paul’s theology paints is one of an impotent God the Father standing with His eternal Son Jesus surrounded by the Holy Spirit wondering, hoping, in anguish and lamenting that this “natural man”, this “unsaved son of Adam by the name Abraham or was it Abram” might actually have faith. Faith so that the Word could make His appearance in the Person of Christ for the salvation of mankind. All dependent upon David would be true, and that dang Mary, the teenager, would she really say yes to the plan, or would natural man have his (her) way. The fact is Abraham’s righteousness was deemed so in an eternity past when the Lamb was slain. (Rev13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.) God did not randomly choose just any creature to bear the seed which would save the world, no he specifically selected Abram. It was indeed a mighty God ordaining and having His way, even though we see Abram having a son Ishmael and not being in complete faith, yet it was the Lord declaring him righteous not because of the offering of Isaac on the alter but simply by believing and exercising the Saving Faith which no natural man has. |
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solascriptura 11-May-09, 08:56 |
Paul's Theology part 2 Paul:"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." At the end of the day, Len MUST rely on tradition and human authority to make his case. He has, and he will continue to say words do not mean what they say, he will be forced eventually to ascribe MULTIPLE meanings for the plain simple words of Scripture (faith, saved, etc.) when his position is shown to be in error. End of Quote Tradition has nothing to do with it, yet when scripture is your authority, then you can stand firm. Paul continues to muddy the water with this passage in James, when by his own admission it is SAVING FAITH of which we speak. This passage has no relevance on the depravity of man and if a natural man lost in his sins and trespasses can believe. Paul:Here is proof of that. Len: So far Paul has not proven the Reformed Baptist and Presbyterian preachers in the world wrong. In fact we see mostly a reading into scripture an idea, a doctrine condemned by church councils across the span of centuries. We see an abandonment of Protestant values and foundation of the Reformers tossed to the side. Len's ultimate source of authority can only be at the end of the day, Reformed preachers (and their millions of adherents as he pointed out on the previous page), church councils held down over the centuries (tradition), and a general appeal to Protestantism. Odd that he should so lean in a "Bible Database Club", whose explicit mandate is to provide "answers to the great questions of life", from the BIBLE alone. End of Quote. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The reality of this is not true. It is I who continually present scripture as bases of my statements. Paul continues to express opinions, accusation, innuendos; he continues to read into the text presupposed ideas and words which are not there. If you think I am being disingenuous, review the last “Here is proof” statement. Not one scripture comes forth, only his ranting and ravings about church councils and such. Please, let us get back to the subject at hand which so for Paul has failed to prove that the natural man in of himself cannot exercise Saving Faith. I Paul:Len: "Paul seems to consistently confuse the saving faith that the Christian has, the faith in which the Christian claims the free gift of salvation with dead faith, faith which is hallow and bears no fruit." Len tries here to slip the bonds of the passage in James where as pointed out earlier in this post, the faith was exercised BEFORE the righteousness was imputed. He decries the word faith in James as speaking of DEAD FAITH!??? Really? Abraham's faith was a DEAD faith??? How so brother Len? :-[ End of Quote ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, I never said Abraham’s faith was dead, it was your confusion of which faith James was addressing in the book of James that lead you to the hasty conclusion. The dead faith of which James speaks is in Chapter 2 vs 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? James continues to address dead faith through verse 26. James point in this passage is that faith that does not demonstrate fruit (works) is a dead faith which is non-salvific nature. |
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solascriptura 11-May-09, 09:00 |
Paul's Theology Part 3 Who will be Len's guide then to help decide which Scriptures can and cannot be taken at face value, and which words of Scripture must be fractured into multiple meanings in order to blunt the force of them? The reformed traditions, past and present of course! If you "choose" to be a Calvinist, then that is where you must really put your faith and trust at the end of the day. For me, it is truly "solascripture". I am content with that and none else. I don't need millions to stand with me to be secure and safe in such a position. End of Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is not the multiple meanings of the word "SAVED" but your continued misuse and abuse of the word Faith. Quiet the clacking of your key board, look up at the monitor and read the following: We of the Protestant agree with you Paul. Saving faith is needed to be saved. If one does not have Saving faith then they have not been saved, are not saved nor will ever be saved without it. Again, the cry of the Reformers was Sola Fide, Faith alone. The reason the tense of the verb is future is because we as creatures live in a temporal world. We are slaves to time where as God is not. From the creatures point of view we are saved while yet we are sinners. We HAVE BEEN saved by Christ work on the cross. I AM SAVED today because I believe and those that do not believe today “WILL BE SAVED” tomorrow when they do believe. Nowhere in Acts16:13 do we see the natural man, the unsaved procuring salvation by believing. I can hear the cat calls calling now from Paul! All of the “saving” is began and finished by our Lord. He does not believe for us, we must do that, He does however enable us so that we may do so. Let us see what really happened. Paul and Silas were in jail, by a work of God the jail doors sprung open. The jailer assuming the prisoners have escaped and is set upon destroying himself when Paul shots to not do so. We know prior to this, the man was in the occupation of jailer, definitely not portrayed as one of the followers of Christ. His world ends with his supposition that the prisoners in whom he is in charge escape. He know his means by which he earns a living is over, the authorities when they find out will come and kill him. Just as those in this world today place their dreams in their ability of themselves, so this individual was. There is a change. We see him from this desolate place where he will kill himself arrive at a feet of Paul and Silas asking “what must he do to be saved”. What is the change whereby this man whom was not seeking God now is? He is unlike those in Ezekiel11:19 "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, Ezekiel11:19 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh The new heart was given to him so that he might search and seek after Jesus. Unlike those in John 6:26 that were seeking Jesus ,” not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.” If you remember Paul had told us that these people were seeking Jesus…even for the wrong reason. Again, I re-enforce that the Natural man does not even seek after God unless the Faith is given to him , I stand with the Apostle Paul when he quotes in Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD. |
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solascriptura 11-May-09, 09:11 |
What Paul’s Theology must deny by believing Faith comes before regeneration? •All men are not really spiritually dead before regeneration (Cf. Eph 2:1; Rom 3:10-12). •The natural man does accept the things of the Spirit (Cf. I Cor 2:14) •An unbeliever can believe at any time by his own power apart from God's regeneration (Jn 3:3,4; 8:43,47) •Saving faith is not a gift of God (Cf. I Cor 12:3; Phil 1:29; Eph 2:8) 3. Despite the fact that these assertions comprise important Biblical doctrines, the majority of today’s evangelical pulpits adamantly assert that faith must precede regeneration. One theologian recently insisted that God cannot -- and to say the same thing -- will not -- regenerate a heart that will not admit Him. More often, its stated positively: Any person who is willing to trust in Jesus Christ as his personal Savior and Lord can receive the new birth now. Behind these opinions lie four presuppositions: •The natural man is not so spiritually dead in sin that he cannot believe in God for salvation. •Regeneration is God's gift in response to man's faith (but faith itself is not a gift). God does nothing (and can do nothing) to bring us to faith in Him. He loves us because we first loved Him. •God can only seek to persuade lost people to turn to Christ in faith, nothing more. •God would be unfair to require faith of those who are unable to believe. 4. All of this effects the believer's spiritual life, humility, & even his assurance. They greatly impact both Biblical teaching & the glory of God. Where does saving faith come from? What do the Scriptures teach? I wonder, will Paul be able to address the above scriptures and tells us why they are not true? What Paul's theology needs is to turn from the swim in the Tiber towards the home in Rome. Once turned around, swim back to the shores of the Reformation where it will find the truth. No longer should it hold hands with the Pope and the teaching magisterium of Roman Catholic theology which stares through distorted lenses of antiquity and teaches false doctrine whereby man saves himself. Return to Sola Gratia, grace and grace alone. Embrace Sola Fide, true faith, faith which actually saves. Turn aside from stitching patches of one’s righteousness on the Robe of Righteousness which Christ gives us and believe it is on His merit alone by which we are saved. Len |
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Dear Len any other group within or without Christendom. Talk like that scores no points here, and may get you evicted if it persists. Your disparaging remarks towards catholics come as somewhat as a surprise to me. Surely you are aware that John Calvin was influenced by the very catholic Augustine, more than any other teacher. Be careful not to poison the very well from which you draw your own theology! Augustine is the true father of Calvinism. Paul P.S. I haven't actually read your posts yet (just glimpsed briefly at the end of your last one) so I trust that the tone I picked up on there does not pervade all of your 3 recent posts. Hmmmmm. |
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solascriptura 12-May-09, 03:59 |
Slagging Catholics My position of course is Calvinistic, but much more important it is Protestant. It does not mean nor bind me to Calvinism. My actual background is 4 Square Gospel and Assembly of God, I am attending a Non Denominational Church. It does not mean that any or all of these groups have all the answers. Only that the bible has some clear and concise doctrinal truths which I believe the theology in which you walk concerning our discussion has abandoned. Martin Luther and Calvin were just a few of the Fathers of our Protestant Faith. I owe no apology for being a Protestant. Martin Luther was an Augustinian Monk, so of course as Protestants we understand where our roots are. I can't imagine anyone taking offense at any of my statements. That is not my intent at all. Augustine was indeed a Catholic, but more importantly he understood wrote and taught against Pelaginism which is where the doctrine of faith before regeneration springs via Semi-Pelaginism and Arminianism. Your responses concerning my post of course will be most welcome. I think we will probably see again the doctrine of man saving himself pressed into scripture with a form of eisegeses rather exegeses of the text. Blessings, Len |
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Response to Len. In plain English then, Len tells us here that in order to BECOME saved, you must first be SAVED via Divine regeneration (which BTW according to Len, happens when a soul is completely depraved and not even wanting to be saved in the first place)! Duhhhhhh????????? ;-( This makes perfect sense to Len of course because when it comes right down to it, Len must make use of the door of "timelessness" to prop up his pre-deterministic theology, where he is no longer constrained by the natural, sane order of "effect always following the cause". This gives him licence as well to ignore the plain witness of Scripture which ALWAYS speaks of new life (regeneration if you will), following AFTER faith! Len's appeal to "timelessness" in order to salvage his position, is a desperate recourse IMO. Take note readers. His whole position falls as I noted earlier, on this very critical point. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you SHALL be saved"! Len simply cannot concede the order of Scripture given here and in all other passages as well. Faith is exercised FIRST. New life follows AFTER! Len's appeal to timelessness (Just for the record) "The reason the tense of the verb is future is because we as creatures live in a temporal world. We are slaves to time where as God is not. From the creatures point of view we are saved while yet we are sinners." Notice as well, Len's complete avoidance of the point I pressed re: God testing Abraham's faith in Genesis 22, where only AFTER the test was God able to declare, "12.........Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." In the game of chess, when your position is checkmated, the game is over. Its no use ranting on about how strong your pawns are, or even how much better positioned you feel your Rooks are, or anything else. If you King is in checkmate, then you simply must concede the game. Len's position has been checkmated here folks, even though he is unwilling to concede it. He is trapped by the witness of Scripture which insists that the order of Salvation is ALWAYS, Faith followed by New Life! Len must excuse all the passages of Scripture which teach us this order of Salvation, solely on grounds of the ancient Greek notion of "atemporality of the Divine". So far Len has appealed to "tradition", "church councils", "protestantism in general", "millions of reformed Baptists/Presbyterians and their pastors", and now this latest "appeal to timelessness". He is recycling his depravity verses in almost every post now, apparently blind and deaf to the Biblical distinction I pointed out earlier on, about Faith being distinct from Works. The Bible allows that unsaved men and women (under duress and conviction from the Holy Spirit of God) can indeed exercise saving faith to the saving of their souls. John 4 " 39And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did. 40So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. 41And many more believed because of his own word; 42And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world." Everybody has a chance to believe. When Christ says "whosoever will" He means exactly that. There is no deceit in His very real legitimate offer of Salvation to all who would take Him up on it. Nobody is excluded. Finally, Len in his frustration has begun to resort to language like the following. This is very disappointing. I'm genuinely sorry to see this. Len writes: "that dang Mary, the teenager", and also "No longer should it hold hands with the Pope and the teaching magisterium of Roman Catholic theology which stares through distorted lenses of antiquity and teaches false doctrine whereby man saves himself". We have believing Catholics here in this club. Nobody has taught here that "false doctrine whereby man saves himself". Insisting that unsaved men and women are ABLE to respond of their own volition when God COMMANDS all men to do so, constitutes teaching "that false doctrine whereby man saves himself"??????? Really Len. You've gone too far with this Len. Acts 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: The command goes out to ALL men EVERYWHERE Len. Men are free to reject that command, just as you are completely free to reject the Biblical order of Faith followed by New Life, if it so pleases you. God gives men a genuine choice. The offer is real and available to all, all reformed Baptist and Presbyterian preachers and their adherents notwithstanding. John 3: 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to BECOME the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: We must first RECEIVE Christ as Saviour, in order to BECOME the sons of God. Checkmate Len. This is a forum intended to show the way to God for all who would be so disposed to search Him out. This particular thread was started to show that plan of Salvation to those who might be interested in it. Your posts Len have argued that all men cannot avail themselves of that wonderful plan. You've had your say Len, and so have I. Your posts will remain for all to see and decide for themselves. This particular thread will now be locked down to further discussion. I would be happy to discuss other aspects of Calvinism/predeterminism on a new thread if you wish to carry this discussion further. I suggest we tackle the "atemporality" issue. You decide Len. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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