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solascriptura 10-Jun-09, 15:12 |
 God really is OmniscientDefinition: The attribute of Omniscient which is applied to God is by which God perfectly and eternally knows all things which can be known, past, present, and future. Meaning: This, like omnipresence, demonstrates that man cannot hide from God because God knows all things. He knows the number of hairs on each head; He knows the heart and thoughts of every man. Just because no man is around to see us do wrong doesn't mean nobody saw it happen, God did. Our intentions in the things we do are known to God. We need to be sure that our attitudes are congruent with our actions because God knows when we are doing things for the wrong reasons or motives. Consider: The following was a post on our message board. . Note the author states:"God knows our thoughts and intentions only." He sites the following: Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Deuteronomy 8 "2And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no." Whether or not you or I would steal the camera, can only be determined with 100% certainty if we are put to the test personally. God knows better that we ourselves what we are likely to do, but we still will make the final call ourselves. God is a very informed and interested bystander in such circumstances. He searches our hearts in such situations ALL THE TIME. If He already knew every outcome, He would hardly need to search our hearts and test us as He so often does. End of Quote. "what we are likely to do"?? I submit, He knows, has known and will forever know what we are likely to do. "God is a very informed"?? God was never informed, He always has known and will forever know all things. "He would hardly need to search our hearts" The need to search our hearts is not due to lack of knowledge but rather to reveal to the creature those dark places where we don't want Him to look. Point 1). God knows everything. He is perfect in knowledge. His understanding is infinite. 1 John 3:19-20 [19] This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence [20] whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Job 37:16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge? Psalms 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit. Psalm 147:4,5 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite. God really does know everything, or at least according to Paul POINT 2). He sees all that occurs in every place and keeps watch upon the just and the wicked. Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good. Ezekiel 8:12 He said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, 'The LORD does not see us; the LORD has forsaken the land.'" There is no escaping the Lord, His knowlege is eternal. Nothing is hidden. POINT 3). God knows everything in nature, every star and every sparrow. Psalms 147:4 He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. Just as He has named every star, the sparrows do not fall, all things in the natural realm is of His will. POINT 4). He watches all mankind and considers each person's works. He sees the ways of men, and He examines all each man's goings. Psalms 33:13-15 [13] From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; [14] from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth -- [15] he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do. Psalms 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD. Stong language for a God that only guesses. The Psalm says that the LORD knows completely POINT 5). God has always known everything that will ever happen. Acts 15:16-18 [16] 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, [17] that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things' [18] that have been known for ages. Torrey's 1898 edition renders verse 18 as "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Isaiah 46:9-10 [9] Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. [10] I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. Mark 13:32 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. POINT 6). God knows from the beginning what each individual man will do. 1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Matthew 20:17-19 [17] Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, [18] "We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death [19] and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!" Acts 3:17-18 [17] Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. [18] But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. Galatians 1:15-17 [15] But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased [16] to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, [17] nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. 1 Peter 1:1-2 [1] ... To God's elect, ... [2] who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance. The above scriptures are the strongest which attest of a God who who has had knowlege from all ages and eternity. POINT 7). The whole plan of the ages and each man's part in it has been known to God from all eternity. Ephesians 1:9-12 [9] And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, [10] to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. [11] In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will, [12] in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. Ephesians 3:6, 8-9 [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. ... [8] ... I am ... to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, [9] and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. Colossians 1:25-26 [25] I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness -- [26] the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. What can be said concerning the scriptures which seem to indicate that God is testing us or searching our hearts? One thing is evident from scripture it is not to gain knowledge. Yet we do find scriptures which state that He is searching our hearts or minds. For example Rev2:23, 1Cor2:10, Rom8:27. The thing to remember is that testing and searching by God is not to obtain knowledge, no, it is about revealing knowledge. He states that His ways and thoughts are higher than ours Isa55:9. In Job 12:22 "He reveals mysteries from the darkness And brings the deep darkness into light.” There is nothing darker than our own hearts. I am reminded when my daughter was very young; we would have Easter Egg hunts for her. We would of course hide the Easter Eggs, and then the next morning she would attempt to find them. I knew where the eggs were hidden, but I would take her by the hand and lead her to close proximity, there she would spot the brightly colored treasure and squeal with glee. Our hearts and minds are no different, God knows them, but many times He must reveal them by a search of heart and mind so that we will know. Sometimes it brings us to repentance, others we discover strengths we did not know we possessed. |
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The Easter egg hunt. He genuinely gets pleasure I believe, out of placing such treasures along our Christian pathway, just to await our reaction when the actual moment of discovery takes place. What parent has not thrilled to see their dearest little ones, react for the first time to a new puppy, a new kitten, a first lick of ice cream, a new bike or perhaps a very first horseback ride? Parents who truly love their children, live the excitement vicariously through these very moments. As a father or six lovely children, I have personally experienced this many, many times over. Imagine however what it would be like as a parent if you knew the following about an Easter egg hunt for example. Imagine that you knew in full 100% clarity, before you ever had the pleasure of seeing your little child being born into the world, all the following details. 1) The exact day of the Easter egg hunt in question. 2) The exact number of Easter eggs that your child would find. 3) The exact word for word expressions of glee your child would make upon each discovery. 4) The exact number of bee stings your child would receive when he/she disturbed a bee's nest in the search for Easter eggs. 5) The exact emotions you yourself would feel and express in every single second of that day. 6) The exact words of comfort you would speak to your child when he/she got stung by the bees which you actually knew about but chose to keep silent about until the moment he/she got stung and had to be rushed to hospital. 7) And all of this knowledge you would have and possess in full 100% 3D clarity, including the very second that you would rise from sleep on that fateful morning, in a previous eternity stretching back millions, billions, even trillions of years into the past. 8) You yourself in such a scenario, could not change a single blessed thing on that day, or in any of the billions, and billions of days/ages that would have preceded, or followed after that day of the Easter egg hunt. 9) No changes, no genuine choices could ever be made by anyone, because it was all just going to happen exactly as you knew it was all going to happen anyway. Still looking forward to the Easter egg hunt do you suppose? I don't think so. God is walking you dear "solascripture" past the Easter egg that remains hidden yet to your eyes! He wonders if you will indeed stop and pick it up. Written on the egg are these blessed words. "God waits for things, God tests things, and God has not fully decided anyones future! Hope remains for all!" Don't throw that egg away. The closer you look at that egg, the more awesome you will understand that egg to be. Its a keeper! The future indeed has many constraints applied against it which will surely come to pass by the decree and will of God, devils, and schemes of wicked men notwithstanding. The broad outlines have been sketched in. The filling in of the details is where the hope in all of this is hidden! The details within the framework are all open to our input and zeal for good, and even more so to God's input and zeal as well! God runs not a "puppet show". We are not "puppets". God is no prisoner Himself to such a "puppet show" as you imagine Him to have created. You cannot thrill to the uncertain discovery of Easter eggs with your children, and yet deny that very same thrill to your Lord and Maker! You are not more blessed than He. Our interaction with God is real. Prayer changes the future course of events. Salvation is a valid option for "whosoever will". God searches out hearts in order that HE might know precisely what exists within those hearts. Let Him not discover stubbornness or unteachability in yours my friend. 2nd Chronicles 32 30..........And Hezekiah prospered in all his works. 31Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to enquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart. And as previously posted in your opening post. Deuteronomy 8 "2And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no." The passages say what they say. GOD SEARCHES/TESTS hearts, nations etc............to FIND STUFF OUT! The future does NOT EXIST YET. Therefore it simply cannot be known in 100% clarity by anyone, including Almighty God. It (the future) has no standing in reality. It does not yet exist. It cannot ever be visited. Nobody lives there. Nobody can exhaustively know the future! Genesis 6 " 5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Regards Paul |
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chector 12-Jun-09, 16:46 |
response to bigpaul... “Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.” Job 11:7-9 The initial post on this thread, in my opinion, is absolutely in accordance with the teaching of scripture. Many very good valid points were made each of which was backed up with scripture proof. The response however does not deal with the points made in the post. In my opinion, the first half of the response is a story with no reference to scripture but rather human reason and imagination, the second half, I believe, is a misinterpretation of scripture. Bigpaul said: >>>>It is oftentimes the case with God that He will "walk us into the proximity" of where He has previously hidden some special treasure or joy, for the express purpose that we might make the discovery on our own, "SQUEALING WITH GLEE" and delighting His own heart in the process! End of Quote Where is the scripture to back up this idea? I don’t find anything in scripture to suggest that God hides special treasures for us for the purpose that we will find them on our own. My Bible teaches that God is pleased to reveal the treasures of His will to us by His word and Spirit and if left on our own we are blind, dead and ignorant of all spiritual things and will perish in our sins. “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. “For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. “FOR GOD, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, HATH SHINED in our hearts, to GIVE the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be OF GOD, and NOT OF US.” 2 Cor 4:3-7 Only the light of the Holy Spirit shining into our hearts will reveal to us the glorious riches and treasures of God and His will for our salvation. God in His sovereignty hides these things from those who are lost and reveals them unto those who are saved. Let’s not argue with the word of God, let’s receive it and believe it! Bigpaul said: >>>>You cannot thrill to the uncertain discovery of Easter eggs with your children, and yet deny that very same thrill to your Lord and Maker! You are not more blessed than He. End of Quote God is not a man like us. He is not subject to like passions as we are. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways. It's simply not valid to argue what we think God would feel based on what man would feel. Rather than imposing our wisdom on God, we should bow our reason to the revelation of God in scripture. In my opinion the second half of the response is a misinterpretation of scripture. I will try to explain why I take this view. Bigpaul said: >>>> 2nd Chronicles 32 30..........And Hezekiah prospered in all his works. 31Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to enquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart. And as previously posted in your opening post. Deuteronomy 8 "2And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no." The passages say what they say. GOD SEARCHES/TESTS hearts, nations etc............to FIND STUFF OUT! The future does NOT EXIST YET. Therefore it simply cannot be known in 100% clarity by anyone, including Almighty God… End of Quote The passage from 2nd Chronicles 32 is saying that God left Hezekiah to fall into sin to show HEZEKIAH what was in his own heart. It is not saying that God left him so that GOD would find out what was in Hezekiah’s heart. God could have prevented Hezekiah from committing the sin but for wise and holy reasons he permitted it so that Hezekiah would find out what was in his heart; that he was not so perfect in grace as he thought he was, but had sins and weaknesses like other men. It is good for us to know ourselves, and our own weakness and sinfulness so that we won’t be conceited or self-confident, but think less of ourselves and live in a dependence upon Gods grace. “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jer 17:9 ... This means we don’t know the wickedness of our own hearts “I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins...” Jer 17:10 … This means God searches and sees into the depths of our hearts and tries us to show us what is in the depth of our hearts. I does not mean God has to take a closer look to see what is in our heart and run a series of tests and analyse the results to get a better picture of what we are really like. He made us, he knows us perfectly We don’t know the corruptions that are in the depths of our hearts but God knows it and when He leaves us to ourselves and these corruptions break out, we learn something about our own hearts. The other passage from Deuteronomy 8 is teaching the same thing. Bigpaul said: >>>> God searches out hearts in order that HE might know precisely what exists within those hearts. Let Him not discover stubbornness or unteachability in yours my friend. End of Quote Wow, how ironic!! If God would show you and I a little of what is in our own hearts, we might realise the stubbornness and unteachability that is natural to us in our fallen nature, which can only be healed by His free grace and mercy. Sometimes we have to learn the hard way. The bottom line is that God is infinite in knowledge and understanding. He knows the end from the beginning. He is executing all His foreordained will and decree by controlling everything that takes place in this world. "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" Rom 11:33 "In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col 2:3 Nothing is hidden from the eye of God. "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do." Heb 4:12-13 That is the testimony of scripture. Let God be true and every man a liar! Kindest Regards Hector |
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You cannot contradict the plain words of Scripture. "11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." God wanted to know for sure what was in Abraham's heart so he tested him. In like manner He tested the Israelites in the desert as the passage in Deuteronomy unequivocally states. In like manner God withdrew from Hezekiah in order to test him. IMO, it is patently dishonest to force any other sense onto these passages then what sense they immediate present to the unbiased reader. God searches and tests our hearts in order that HE may gain full and certain information about just where our hearts are at. Be honest enough with yourself Hector to face the fact that you CANNOT admit the plain force of these passages. Concede for the record here please (like many of your superiors who teach the Calvinist view have also done), that these passages are to be denied under the banner of "anthropomorphism". The use of this term allows you to concede the following. The passages in question do indeed teach that God tests men/women in order that He might learn what is really in their hearts, but that those passages (according to the leading Calvinist sources), are not to be understood as strictly factual. You must use the very awkward and IMO, patently IMMORAL tactic of saying that God deceives us here by speaking to us as if He were only a man, and not God. Basically lying to us about what He really knows or does not know, under the guise of speaking to us on our own human level. Be honest enough with yourself Hector to concede this point. Don't try to ignorantly twist the words and the grammar of plainly written Bible passages, just because your system of theology cannot survive if the passages be taken literally, as written. When God writes "NOW I KNOW, BECAUSE..............", then simply man up to the plain reading of the text, and run to commonly held excuse that this and many other similar passages are "anthropomorphic". You can also use this excuse when you run across any of the myriad of passages which speak about God getting provoked by the things we do sometimes. God could hardly be provoked by the very script that you allege that He wrote in 100% entirety from start to finish,now could He? I've argued that He would have a hard time even staying interested in such a puppet show, let alone getting provoked or emotionally distraught about it. My argument still stands. Your Calvinistic world view denies the Bible, and it just doesn't make any sense at all. Give it up Hector. Come to the light and be free. Regards Paul |
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chector 13-Jun-09, 15:41 |
further response to bigpaul... 1) Bigpaul said: >>>>IMO, it is patently dishonest to force any other sense onto these passages then what sense they immediate present to the unbiased reader. End of Quote It is extremely foolish to assume that every scripture means what we immediately think it means. The scriptures have to be searched in and prayed over to find out the meaning. Some things are very plain at first reading, other things are very mysterious. The way to understand the meaning of scripture is to prayerfully compare passages with each other and let scripture interpret scripture. Instead of this you are constantly appealing to human reason with statements such as "it just doesn't make any sense at all" Perhaps it doesn't make any sense to puny man but it all makes perfect sense to God. 2) Bigpaul said: >>>>Concede for the record here please (like many of your superiors who teach the Calvinist view have also done), that these passages are to be denied under the banner of "anthropomorphism". End of Quote. No true Calvinist, no true Christian, nobody that believes the Bible to be the holy inspired inerrant word of the living God denies these passages. They believe every word of scripture and deny none! Whoever the superior intelligences you refer to are, if they deny any passages of God’s word there is no light in them. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isa 8:20 If you are suggesting that the scripture does not speak in a manner which attributes human forms and human attributes and emotions to God, your argument is not with me but with God Himself. The scripture abounds with examples of where God is spoken off as having human forms. This is surely to not in debate. In order to speak of God in a manner in which our minds can comprehend, the language of scripture often attributes to God such things as eyes, hands, feet, ears, mouth and heart. I need not take up space quoting the verses. Paul, can you please answer this direct question: Is it your belief that there are no anthropomorphic passages in scripture? Anyway, I think the passages you refer are clearly stating that God tries His people to show them what is in THEIR heart rather than for His own benefit of finding out what he doesn't already know. Your interpretation does not accord with the rest of scripture. The following verse is but one example. "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do." Heb 4:13 Please give your interpretation of this verse and how it relates to your statement ... >>>>"God wanted to know for sure what was in Abraham's heart so he tested him." ...and your earlier statement ... >>>>"The passages say what they say. GOD SEARCHES/TESTS hearts, nations etc............to FIND STUFF OUT! The future does NOT EXIST YET. Therefore it simply cannot be known in 100% clarity by anyone, including Almighty God… Oh really? How about this scripture... "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Isa 46:9-10 Can we have your interpretation of that please? The trial of Abraham's faith was for Abraham's benefit and for the glory of God. "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" 1 Pet 1:7 God knew already that Abraham feared Him but now Abraham had given a memorable evidence of it by his obedience to this extremely difficult trial. This trial was to EXERCISE Abraham's faith. Strong faith is often exercised by strong trials, such as in the case of Job. 3) Bigpaul said: >>>>I've argued that He would have a hard time even staying interested in such a puppet show, let alone getting provoked or emotionally distraught about it. My argument still stands. End of Quote. This is foolish human reasoning with no Biblical basis. God has had an interest in what goes on in this world since before He created it. Read Proverbs 8:22-31 He created the world for the purpose of gathering in to His kingdom all those people who He has loved with an everlasting love. These are Christ’s people given to him by the Father and who Christ covenanted to redeem. "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world" Eph 1:4 Also read St John chapter 17, particularly verses 6 and 9 The whole history of the world relates to God’s purposes to save these people in every generation. The whole Bible speaks about the conflict between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. These are the profound things which God is most certainly interested in. So much so that He gave His only begotten Son to save these people. Every event of history is in Gods hand and is working together for the good of these people and for the good of Gods kingdom. It is hard for us to see this at times but scripture declares this to be the case. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Rom 8:28 The initial post on this thread by solascriptura gave numerous scriptures to prove his line of argument. You have ignored them and tried to force your interpretation of scripture on us. Just saying that’s what it says and that’s what it means is not good enough. Has it never occurred to you that your interpretation is wrong? Kindest Regards Hector |
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Hector "Perhaps it doesn't make any sense to puny man but it all makes perfect sense to God." Ah yes, why should your position have to make sense to puny man anyway? Given your position here, I cease and desist from trying to reason with you any further. You have declared yourself to be beyond the reach of reason and it troubles you not. Enough said. You have also made it clear that you will never accept the plain meaning of the passages I have cited, because you believe them to run against the grain of the rest of Scripture. If the passage clearly says God is searching hearts to find out things for Himself, you just say in effect,"No it cannot be". "It must be to show the people what was in their hearts" because your theology cannot allow for anything else. I cannot help you Hector. You are impervious to reason and to the written Word. I am powerless to help you in such a state. Your fate is decided. Continue to be a loyal Calvinist then, and be the puppet that you imagine God created you to be. Quarrel not with any of your fellow puppets, because they too are just doing the bidding and will of the "Master Puppet" (as your theology makes God out to be). All is going according to plan then according to your world view. Don't get yourself all in a lather then over anything you read in this club. Its ALL Gods will is it not? Enjoy! BP |
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chector 15-Jun-09, 05:50 |
FAO PAUL... WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE... >>>>Ah yes, why should your position have to make sense to puny man anyway? Given your position here, I cease and desist from trying to reason with you any further. You have declared yourself to be beyond the reach of reason and it troubles you not. Enough said. End of Quote ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! The Bible itself states that some of God's ways and doings are beyond the power of man to fully comprehend. They are unsearchable and past finding out. If you think everything revealed by God has to be deduced to human reason or else rejected, you are in serious darkness! The scriptures are to be received by FAITH, whether our minds can reach to the mysteries revealed in them or not. God has revealed everything that is necessary to salvation in such a way as the most simple can understand, but there are also great mysteries in scripture, which we will only understand fully in heaven. One such mystery in the incarnation of the Son of God. Another is how the eternal decrees of God are 100% consistent with the freedom of mans will. Both are stated as facts in scripture. If our puny reason cannot reconcile them, that is not relevant. We still accept them by FAITH Bigpaul said: >>>>You have also made it clear that you will never accept the plain meaning of the passages I have cited, because you believe them to run against the grain of the rest of Scripture. If the passage clearly says God is searching hearts to find out things for Himself, you just say in effect,"No it cannot be". "It must be to show the people what was in their hearts" because your theology cannot allow for anything else. End of Quote If the interpretation of a particular passage runs against the grain of the rest of scripture, it is the wrong interpretation! My issue is not whether your interpretation is consistent with my theological position. My issue is that your interpretation is inconsistent with the rest of scripture. That is why I have asked you to explain how your interpretation is consistent with the following verses... Heb 4:13 "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do." Isa 46:9-10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" and I'll add this one too... Acts 15:18 "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." As far as I'm concerned your interpretation contradicts these and many other scriptures and is therefore wrong. The interpretation I sought to give is consistent with these and other scriptures therefore until proven otherwise, I hold it to be correct. I look forward to your interpretation of these verses! Bigpaul said: >>>>I cannot help you Hector. End of Quote You're right on that point! And by God's grace, you cannot deceive me either. Bigpaul said: >>>>Continue to be a loyal Calvinist then, and be the puppet that you imagine God created you to be. Quarrel not with any of your fellow puppets, because they too are just doing the bidding and will of the "Master Puppet" (as your theology makes God out to be). End of Quote Calvinists are not puppets and neither are non-Calvinists, and neither is God a Master Puppet. Every man has a free will and makes choices. Calvinism does not deny this fact. The reality of God's eternal unchangeable decree in everything does not alter the fact that man is a free agent. Scripture clearly teaches that and our own personal experience gives proof of it. My position, which I believe to be in accordance with scripture is as follows... God has eternally and unchangeably decreed all things that come to pass in this world for His own holy and wise reasons.... ACTS 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. HEB 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath. ROM 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. ....yet God is not the author of sin.... JAM 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 1JOHN 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. ...nor is the liberty of man's will, or second causes taken away, but actually established. ACTS 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. MATT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. ACTS 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. JOHN 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. PROV 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord. Kindest Regards Hector |
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solascriptura 15-Jun-09, 18:45 |
Great discussion Paul ask the following as a parent would I want the know the following: 1) The exact day of the Easter egg hunt in question. 2) The exact number of Easter eggs that your child would find. 3) The exact word for word expressions of glee your child would make upon each discovery. 4) The exact number of bee stings your child would receive when he/she disturbed a bee's nest in the search for Easter eggs. 5) The exact emotions you yourself would feel and express in every single second of that day. 6) The exact words of comfort you would speak to your child when he/she got stung by the bees which you actually knew about but chose to keep silent about until the moment he/she got stung and had to be rushed to hospital. 7) And all of this knowledge you would have and possess in full 100% 3D clarity, including the very second that you would rise from sleep on that fateful morning, in a previous eternity stretching back millions, billions, even trillions of years into the past. 8) You yourself in such a scenario, could not change a single blessed thing on that day, or in any of the billions, and billions of days/ages that would have preceded, or followed after that day of the Easter egg hunt. 9) No changes, no genuine choices could ever be made by anyone, because it was all just going to happen exactly as you knew it was all going to happen anyway. The point of the Easter Egg analogy was to point to God’s helping search our hearts not to gain knowledge but to help the child find the treasure. The point here is not what I want or would do, but who God is. No body is saying God is running a puppet show, His knowledge does not absolve us of our moral choices and responsibility. God is God, and His attributes remain the same. He is the same yesterday, today and yes forevermore the same. He changes not. Genuine choices are made everyday by the sons of Adam. God knows what those choices are from an eternity past, but none the less they are genuine from the creatures point of view. In Paul's anthropological theology an unknown astroid could have smashed into Bethlehem upon Jesus' birth and ended the salvation of man. After all it teaches His knowledge is limited, He learns by observing and He is on a learning curve. 1JN3: 19We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him 20in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things When we apply the words of John to points 1-9 the answer is God “knows all things.”, He is perfect in knowledge (Job37:16), His understanding is infinite (Psalm147:4-5) If you take these 3 scriptures and apply them to Gen 22 and Abraham, then we see that God clearly knew what Abraham would do. God is not some kindly old uncle sort whom is keen to observe but has the fallible attribute of non-omniscient. The Eternal Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit did not stand wringing their hands hoping upon hope that Abraham would do what he did. They did not have to guess, because they really “know all things”, their understanding is with out limits, their understanding really is infinite just as the 3 scriptures state that I gave in my original post. The theology which disavows God’s omniscient can not believe what is stated in 1jn3:19-20, Job 37:16 and Psalm 147:147:4-5. It must press into scripture and make scripture say something which it does not say. There has been a shot gun blasting of scripture by Paul so far, yet he has not dealt with the scriptures I gave in the my affirmative statement. Nor has he dealt with those of Hector which consistently reveal the omniscient Lord. You can not pit scripture against scripture and expect positive results. God’s word is inerrant, the Holy Spirit does not say one thing in one book and something else in another. When the word of God says that He know all things, that His knowledge is perfect, that His knowledge is infinite, then it is. We must understand when He uses the word search or test our heart or mind it must be with the understanding that He is not searching for knowledge but really does “knows all things” to the most extreme sense of the word. In the name of the mighty Son Sola |
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chector 16-Jun-09, 01:01 |
Response to Solascriptura Absolutely spot on and scriptural. Thankyou for your support and defending the truth of God against error. |
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solascriptura 16-Jun-09, 20:53 |
Another is how the eternal decrees of God are 100% consistent with the freedom of mans will. Both are stated as facts in scripture. If our puny reason cannot reconcile them, that is not relevant. We still accept them by FAITH" End of Quote. Very good point. Scripture teaches that man is a moral creature able to make choices which the Lord holds him accountable. The other is that God has made a choice called election in the bible, where He has predestined those that will live with Him forever in glory. These two concepts run as parallel lines into eternity. Hence when we say that the Lord is omniscient, the Lord knows all things, He is not just a good guesser. When we study scripture which reveals His Holy nature we should always believe and understand what He is saying to us, not what we think He should say. What happens is by not accepting omniscience as one of His attributes we begin a journey into idolatry. We soon have a false concept and vision of God, and no longer worship Him but some false image which is idolatry. Reformed theologians Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Owen & Jonathan Edwards really were the backbone of the our Protestant theology, much to the consternation of the Arminian and Semi-Peligian folks today. Calvin understood that idolatry is not limited to crass or primitive forms like those found in animistic or totemic religion. The very essence of idolatry involves the distortion of God's character. Paul teaches in Romans that idolatry consist in exchanging God's Glory for a lie. Though all of the above men could be wrong about some of the things of God, they are our greatest thinkers and their words carry weight when we consider what scripture is saying and revealing. Though they are not infallible, they do represent the best minds of their time and from their understanding of scripture we have a firm foundation grounded not in men but what God has reveal to men. Blessings, Len |
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chector 17-Jun-09, 05:59 |
A couple of further thoughts... If we are worshipping a God who is not infinite and perfect in every conceivable way we are not worshiping the God of the Bible, the one living and true God, and therefore it amounts to idolatry. Such a God is a figment of man's imagination and furthermore, such a God cannot save a sinner. Also, on the point of God's omniscience... I was thinking about psalm 139. The psalm gives such unmistakable proof of God's omniscience. Look how it starts... PSALM 139 1 O LORD, thou hast SEARCHED me, and KNOWN me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. I think it is quite clear that this psalm is laying down unmistakably the great doctrine that the God with whom we have to do is of perfect knowledge of us, His creatures, and that every motion and action, both outwardly and inwardly, are well known to him. The verses even give direct proof that it is not after we do a thing the God finds out about it, but rather before we do it God knows about it. Verse 2 states the God knows our thoughts afar off, verse 4 states that God knows our words before they are uttered. That is why the psalmist in verse 6 has to admire and wonder at the amazing knowledge that God has of him. What a beautiful psalm and how wonderful our God is. I also came across a wonderful verse this morning, which I think is worthy of some consideration... PSALM 66 10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried. Note the words "proved" and "tried" I think this demonstrates the purpose of God trying us. Not to find out more about us, which He doesn't already know, but rather to prove our sincerity and for our refining (like silver is refined by trying it in a furnace) to take out the corruption and make us holy. It is part of the work of sanctification. Making us ready for heaven. This seems consistent with... 1 PETER 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Anybody got more thoughts on this?? Kindest Regards Hector |
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solascriptura 22-Jun-09, 09:24 |
Psalm 66 PSALM 66 10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried. Note the words "proved" and "tried" I think this demonstrates the purpose of God trying us. Not to find out more about us, which He doesn't already know, but rather to prove our sincerity and for our refining (like silver is refined by trying it in a furnace) to take out the corruption and make us holy. It is part of the work of sanctification. Making us ready for heaven. End of Quote It really is worth considering. Good point for sure. If one searches the KJV you will find in almost all cases God is "proving man", of course man is "testing God". The translators were of course correct in that they believed in God being omniscient. God does not have to test man in order to know what is in his heart. However, there is one that does not know. Our common enemy Satan is not omniscient. In order to find out our weakness, he must bring tests against us in order to determine the best place to attack. James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, " I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone The greek word for tempted is πειράζω (peirazo), which stems according to Strongs from peira; to test (objectively), i.e. Endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline -- assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt(-er), try. We see the same word being used in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) Version of the Old Testament. The first century Jew believed that forms of temptations and tests were the same thing, hence they used the same word peiraz or some form of its derivative. God would tempt you by bringing a fair young maiden to your eyes for example, or he might test your faith by bringing a bad crop or some other disaster upon you. The word peiraz would be used to describe both events. James declares that God is not tempting (testing) us. With our modern translations our bibles do have the word test or testing associated with actions of God. We must remember though, God is omniscient, He has no need to test us. Our modern language obscures the greek word and for us there are two different meanings. I submit to you that we are in error when we think that it is God who is bringing disaster upon us to test us in some way. Those things which happen are a result of fallen man making poor choices or a fallen world which cries out for God's return. Test are brougt against us but it is endured by God in order that He might prove His children. I will continue to study the Psalm and see what Reformed Theology considers its meaning. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Blessings, Len |
