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 did we offer the draw? |
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Draw offer accepted "From antagonistknight Hello, johnclark! Draw accepted, there is very little either side can do with the position. If either of us were to try and force something it would most likely end in disaster. " ---------------- Well folks, this concludes our consultation games. I wish to thank all who participated. Speaking for myself, I found the games to be not only enjoyable but also good learning opportunities. Good discussion and good insights. For the 'hard core', I'll post a discussion thread to rehash and analyze this game. ---------------- My previous team, Chess, is negotiating a consultation game with us. In keeping with our 19th century chess spirit, I have suggested the Two Knights Defense, Perreux Variation (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Ng5...) and I believe they are willing to accept it. I anticipate the game to start on December 1, 2009. When the details are finalized I'll post a thread for the consultation game. I hope all of you join in for the fun. |
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antagonistknight 24-Nov-09, 05:02 |
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excellent play! |
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coopershawk 25-Nov-09, 21:30 |
game annotation for group comments adding comments. It is also open for club member comments and questions. gameknot.com |
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coopershawk 25-Nov-09, 22:54 |
Why 32.Be3 reason for the move was not clear to me, and no one on our team proffered an explanation when I posed the question. |
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cascadejames |
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coopershawk 26-Nov-09, 21:15 |
Thanks John Tonight I fed this game into the computer program Shredder 12 -- just for fun. Shredder concluded that black had a very slight advantage at move 33. But then I asked Shredder to finish the game, playing both sides against itself, and taking 2 minutes per move. The result was a checkmate for white in 74 moves. For what it's worth, after playing around with a couple of computer programs, for post-game analysis, I have yet to figure out any way to use computers to teach me much. If I run a completed game through the computer it can show me when someone made what it thinks was the wrong move, but not in a way that helps to learn. In post-game analysis the computer can specify a better move, but tells me little or nothing about why another move would have been better. It leaves important questions unanswered --- Is it there a tactical problem, or a strategic problem, and what was the problem? Except in the case of obvious blunders, there is no way to tell why the computer's move is better than the move I played in the actual games. |
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coopershawk 29-Nov-09, 11:57 |
Annotation and analysis gameknot.com Additional comments are encouraged. If anyone wants to keep playing it in an unrated game, I will take either side. The game seems too interesting and risky to assign it to the scrap heap of draws. I also ran the game through Shredder 12 and ask the computer to finish the game playing for both sides, giving it 2 minutes per move, with the following result: [Event "Consult game with additions after"] [Site "gameknot.com"] [Date ""] [Round "-"] [White "AntagonisticNight"] [Black "Club Morphy"] [ECO "C38"] [Result "1-0"] 1.e4 {+0.35/14 0s} e5 {+0.27/13 3s} 2.f4 {-0.35/17 1:09m} (2.Nf3 {+0.48/12 2s} ) 2. ... exf4 {-0.35/15 2s} 3.Nf3 {-0.29/15 2s} g5 {-0.41/17 53s} 4.Bc4 {-0.63/17 13s} Bg7 {-0.21/17 0s} 5.d4 {-0.32/17 58s} d6 {-0.32/16 22s} 6.h4 {-0.45/16 0s} h6 {-0.63/16 1:30m} 7.Nc3 {-0.71/17 18s} Nc6 {-0.71/16 47s} 8.d5 {-0.71/15 26s} Ne5 {-0.71/17 14s} 9.Nxe5 {-0.71/17 33s} Bxe5 {-0.78/17 45s} 10.Qf3 {-1.02/17 0s} g4 {-0.55/17 0s} 11.Qf2 {-1.15/19 38s} Qf6 {-1.15/18 1:12m} 12.Bd2 {-1.12/19 10s} a6 {-1.12/18 2:27m} 13.O-O-O {-1.28/18 0s} g3 {-1.15/17 0s} 14.Qe2 {-1.54/14 8s} h5 {-1.41/17 14s} 15.Rdf1 {-2.09/18 46s} (15.Rdg1 {-1.41/16 1:20m} b5 16.Bd3 Ne7 17.Qd1 Ng6 18.Be2 Nxh4 19.Bxh5 b4 20.Na4 Bd4 21.Rf1 Nxg2 22.Qe2 Nh4 23.Rxf4 g2 24.Rg1 Qxf4) 15. ... Bd7 {-1.06/19 53s} (15. ... Bg4 {-1.96/17 47s} 16.Qe1 f3 17.Kb1 f2 18.Qe3 Qh6 19.Nd1 O-O-O 20.Bd3 Re8 21.a3 Kb8 22.Qxh6 Nxh6 23.Ne3 Bd7 24.c3 Bg7 25.Kc2 Ba4+ 26.b3) 16.Kb1 {-1.50/19 1:07m} Ne7 {-0.59/20 21s} (16. ... b5 {-1.27/18 1:22m} 17.Bd3 Bg4 18.Qe1 f3 19.gxf3 g2 20.fxg4 gxh1=Q 21.Rxh1 hxg4 22.Bg5 Qg7 23.Ne2 Bxb2 24.Qa5 Bf6 25.Qxc7 Ne7 26.Rg1 Bxg5 27.hxg5) 17.Qe1 {-0.59/19 55s} Ng6 {-0.59/20 0s} 18.Qc1 {-0.59/20 2:13m} b5 {-0.59/18 43s} 19.Bd3 {-0.59/21 1:33m} Bg4 {-0.59/19 27s} 20.Ne2 {-0.59/21 2:08m} f3 {-0.59/20 49s} 21.gxf3 {-0.59/20 29s} g2 {-0.59/20 35s} 22.fxg4 {-0.59/21 2:13m} gxh1=Q {-0.59/20 46s} 23.Rxh1 {-0.59/22 1:08m} hxg4 {-0.59/21 1:14m} 24.h5 {-0.59/20 3:20m} Ne7 {-0.26/21 0s} (24. ... Nf8 {-0.77/18 1:45m} 25.Rf1 Qe7 26.h6 Nd7 27.Be3 g3 28.Qe1 Qh4 29.Rh1 Qf6 30.Rf1 Qg6 31.Rf5 f6 32.Qa5 Nb6) 25.Rf1 {-0.26/21 1:26m} Qg7 {-0.26/20 37s} 26.h6 {-0.26/19 5s} Qg6 {-0.05/19 0s} 27.Nf4 {-0.05/18 1:36m} Qh7 {-0.05/17 16s} 28.c4 {-0.05/16 1:04m} Kd8 {-0.05/19 55s} 29.cxb5 {-0.05/18 2:44m} axb5 {0.00/17 1:05m} 30.Qc2 {-0.40/19 27s} Rb8 {-0.40/18 1:31m} 31.Ne2 {-0.43/18 13s} Rb7 {-0.20/17 0s} 32.Be3 {-0.51/18 0s} Qg6 {-0.51/18 20s} 33.Nf4 {-0.43/18 56s} Qh7 {-0.40/15 16s} 34.Qg2 {0.00/17 2:32m} Ke8 {0.00/18 3:20m} 35.Rh1 {+0.21/19 3:32m} Rg8 {-0.06/18 2:43m} 36.Bc2 {0.00/17 30s} g3 {0.00/19 3:33m} 37.Nd3 {+0.03/19 1:39m} f6 {+0.08/17 3:40m} 38.Rh3 {0.00/19 2:04m} Qg6 {0.00/19 4:01m} 39.Bf4 {+0.20/18 3:23m} Qh7 {+0.05/19 2:10m} 40.Nxe5 {0.00/18 3:00m} fxe5 {0.00/18 8s} 41.Bd2 {+0.47/19 3:12m} Kd8 {+0.51/20 4:28m} 42.Rxg3 {+0.30/19 1:12m} Rxg3 {+0.62/18 1:26m} 43.Qxg3 {+0.13/15 9s} c5 {+0.75/19 3:49m} 44.dxc6 {+0.75/18 3:15m} Nxc6 {+0.77/15 5s} 45.Qh4+ {+0.70/18 3:06m} Kc7 {+0.70/20 5:22m} 46.Bb3 {+0.81/16 34s} Rb8 {+0.44/17 2:19m} 47.Qg4 {+0.93/17 3:30m} Kb6 {+0.83/16 4:11m} 48.Bd5 {+1.29/19 7:40m} Kc7 {+1.31/17 9:03m} 49.Qg1 {+2.26/18 3:03m} b4 {+1.48/13 3:32m} 50.Qc1 {+4.29/15 3:26m} Qd7 {+5.18/15 3:39m} 51.Qc4 {+5.51/16 3:21m} Rb6 {+5.73/16 5:07m} 52.Be3 {+6.77/17 2:52m} Rb8 {+7.10/17 2:15m} 53.Qa6 {+6.71/16 3:47m} Nd8 {+6.70/14 30s} 54.Ba7 {+7.32/17 2:17m} Rb5 {+7.46/18 3:21m} 55.h7 {+7.75/18 3:57m} Qg4 {+7.38/17 1:46m} 56.Bb8+ {+7.34/17 59s} Rxb8 {+7.20/18 32s} 57.Qc4+ {+8.27/20 2:37m} Kd7 {+8.22/20 12s} 58.h8=Q {+8.42/21 1:11m} Qd1+ {+8.40/18 43s} 59.Qc1 {+8.06/10 0s} Qxc1+ {+8.63/17 28s} 60.Kxc1 {+6.73/10 0s} b3 {+10.03/19 10:10m} 61.Qg7+ {+10.42/20 2:34m} Kc8 {+12.15/21 2:46m} 62.a4 {+12.61/20 3:44m} Rb4 {+14.25/21 6:47m} 63.a5 {+14.31/19 1:51m} Ra4 {+16.56/19 3:40m} 64.Qa7 {+16.25/20 5:21m} Ra2 {+16.71/18 4:08m} 65.Bc4 {+M17/19 1:29m} Ra1+ {+M12/22 4:53m} 66.Kd2 {+18.43/10 0s} Rxa5 {+M11/19 34s} 67.Qxa5 {+M11/19 1:33m} d5 {+M9/18 2:24m} 68.exd5 {+M8/16 18s} Nb7 {+M7/18 2:01m} 69.Qb6 {+M7/13 1s} Kd7 {+M6/18 4:36m} 70.Qxb7+ {+M6/11 0s} Kd6 {+M4/17 3:30m} 71.Kd3 {+M4/7 0s} e4+ {+M3/18 3:22m} 72.Kxe4 {+M3/5 0s} Kc5 {+M2/10 0s} 73.Qc6+ {+M2/3 0s} Kb4 {+M1/10 0s} 74.Qb5# {+M1/1 0s} 1-0 |
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Contiuation accepted I think playing it with PGN via the message program, might be the best unless you want to post our moves in a new thread, which we can do, but that might be over doing it. I'm open to your ideas. Let me know which color you prefer. |
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coopershawk 29-Nov-09, 21:03 |
continuation beginning with move 1. I don't know how many conditional moves the site will take, but I bet it won't take long to play the first 33, then we can go from there. |
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Fritz 6.0 Analysis hbird1830 - Club Morphy 01.05.2009 [Fritz 6 (30s)] C38: Kings Gambit Accepted: 3 Nf3 g5 4 Bc4 Bg7 1.e4 e5 2.f4 2.exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Bc4 Bg7 5.d4 [ 5.0-0 Nc6=] 5...d6 Covers e5 [ FRITZ SUGGESTS 5...g4 6.Ne5 Qh4+ 7.Kf1-/+ AND RATES THIS POSITION AS BLACK WINNING. I REVIEWED OUR DISCUSSION FOR THE 5TH MOVE AND 5...g4 WAS NOT SUGGESTED] 6.h4 [ 6.0-0!?= must be considered] 6...h6=/+ {HERE FRITZ RATES BLACK AS SLIGHTLY BETTER} 7.Nc3 Nc6 Black is in command {WE HAD A HEATED DISCUSSION ON 7...Nc6 v 7...Bd7} 8.d5 White gains space 8...Ne5 9.Nxe5 Bxe5 A comfortable square for the black bishop 10.Qf3 g4 11.Qf2 Qf6 12.Bd2 a6 Secures b5 13.0-0-0 g3 14.Qe2 h5 15.Rdf1 Bd7 16.Kb1 Ne7 17.Qe1 Ng6 18.Qc1 The pressure on the backward pawn f4 grows 18...b5 [ Not 18...Nxh4 19.Bxf4 Nxg2 20.Bxg3+/= FRITZ LISTS THIS LINE AS WHITE BEING SLIGHTLY BETTER] {THERE WAS SUPPORT FOR 18...Nxh4. WE HAD AN UNSOLICITED SUGGESTION WITH ANALYSIS FROM 7angels AND BECAUSE OF THE LENGTHY DISCUSSION, VOTING WAS DELAYED. AFTER NUMEROUS COMMENTS, 18...b5 WAS UNANIMOUSLY AGREED TO.} 19.Bd3 Bg4 20.Ne2 f3 21.gxf3 g2 [ 21...Bxf3? fails because of 22.Bg5 g2 23.Bxf6 gxh1Q 24.Rxh1 Bxf6 25.Rf1 Bxe2 26.Bxe2 Bxh4 27.Qe3+-] 22.fxg4 gxh1Q 23.Rxh1 hxg4 The pressure on h4 grows 24.h5 Ne7 25.Rf1 [ 25.Bg5 Qg7=/+] 25...Qg7-/+ {FRITZ RATES OUR POSITION AT THIS POINT AS CLEARLY BETTER} 26.h6 Pushes the passed pawn 26...Qg6 27.Nf4 Qh7 [ Inferior is 27...Qxh6 28.Ne6 Discovered attack 28...Qg6 29.Nxc7+ Kd7 30.Nxa8 Rxa8 31.Bg5+/-] 28.c4 [ 28.Nh5 g3=/+] 28...Kd8 29.cxb5 axb5 30.Qc2 Rb8 31.Ne2 Rb7 32.Be3 Qg6 33.Nf4 Qh7 [ 33...Qg8!?=/+ might be a viable alternative] 1/2-1/2 |
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antagonistknight 30-Nov-09, 06:12 |
32. Be3 |
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coopershawk 30-Nov-09, 21:19 |
Game on! draw. But I am a little perverse and wanted to keep playing, so John is indulging me at. gameknot.com |
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coopershawk 30-Nov-09, 21:25 |
sk-cadavre-opa 25 . . Qh4. Keep in mind that we only gave the engines a limited amount of time to think about the moves- in my case 2 minutes. My experience in playing out some of Morphy's games on the computer is that sometimes Morphy played a move that the computer thinks is not the strongest -- initially-- but if given more time, the computer analysis does a flip-flop and prefers Morphy's move. Later this week when I have time I will test this with 25 . . Qh4. |
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coopershawk 30-Nov-09, 21:29 |
antagonistknight 32 Be3 Zugzwang, right? |
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antagonistknight 01-Dec-09, 05:20 |
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cascadejames 25 . . Qh4 Don't suppose you've had a chance to test move 25? Sorry for prodding, but I don't own a chess engine (other than Der Bringer which is much worse than me) so am still curious as to the outcome. |
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