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From	Message
tigerblood 27-May-11, 10:53	It's a woman's Prerogative to change her mind!!! In mulling over our two choice moves I suddenly got a "bad feeling" over toying with our opponents in this "cat and mouse" way. When there's a job to do why not just "do it". Taking into account all things here and there and the true message Shamash and Easy put forth I think g5 and it's resounding show of "force" is the only way to go!!! After all why give any wiggle room as Ardin demonstrates when he took down a high rated opponent. Well done Ardin!
wildfiree 31-May-11, 23:03	Yes First, thank you tigerblood! Second, I think we should continue with the pressure by playing g5 as I said somewhere earlier before
shamash 01-Jun-11, 19:50	The road to victory is not paved with pawns The road to victory is not paved with pawns. So far, we have chosen the right moves. Our moves are based on our judgment of the position now, and the position to come: what bridges them is our recognition of the critical moment. White does Not win by picking off weak pawns -- but by penetrating to the 7th and 8th ranks and delivering Mate. .
tigerblood 02-Jun-11, 04:30	Going for it! Shamash has once again spoken with great wisdom.As we prepare ourselves for our next move from our worthy opponents we must contemplate shall our response be a little pitter patter or a mighty thunderous storm.
easy19 02-Jun-11, 10:53	So what do you think there next move will be ?
shamash 02-Jun-11, 11:14	Black's next they will probably try to "save" their bishop instead of making a move to save their King.
shamash 05-Jun-11, 09:21	Black's pieces are asleep, & now Black has chosen to knock over his King When I saw the beginning position 6 moves ago, I thought it offered good prospects for White. What made these hopes for a favorable endgame realistic were at least two elements: White's compact structure and active position. We have maintained that through each of our moves. We are reaching the endgame. And by move 33 we had great prospects. I was hoping that Black, on their last move, would select: 33...Bxg5 over 33...Be7. Had no notion black would select 33...hxg5. Did they really????? Now prospects of victory are becoming certainties. And Black's moves are consistently becoming examples of How NOT to play a late middlegame. Team: let us not let this go to our heads. We are not winning this game. With Black's moves, Black is handing us victory on a platter -- and not one of silver or platinum -- but one of gold. {Our response naturally should be to re-capture fxg5, and bring home the win.}
tigerblood 05-Jun-11, 10:17	It's nice to be on the winning side... I feel for our opponents for nothing stings as badly as creating your own downfall. We've all brilliantly calculated our potential moves only to indecisively pick the worst possible move for reasons that never become clear to us. Thank you Shamash for pointing out what would have been our opponent's best move and second best. I can learn from this. When you're playing against the caliber of our team (myself excluded of course) there's simply no room for mistakes. Let's bring home our victory fxg5!!!!!
easy19 05-Jun-11, 12:02	Here we go again.. first i poke shamash a bit   - don,t tell the answers just yet, but let Ardin and Debbie answer them first. As i like to see if they can think and learn something from playing this game with us. So 34 fxg5 is the most logical and should be the best move.. but what do you think of the next few continuations that are not as good but still good enough to win. both with a delayed fxg5 34. a6 Rxa6 35. fxg5 or 34. h6 gxh6 35. fxg5 Try it on your analyses board and let me know what you think of it. Compare with 34. fxg5 Bxd4 35. Rxf8+
tigerblood 05-Jun-11, 12:57	Easy - Surely you jest First Freddy let me thank you for wanting to "see if we can think and learn" that's surely an admirable goal. However, I do understand this question has already been anticipated and answered by our intrepid leader Shamash when he states most astutely "white does not win by picking off weak pawns but ....". Therefore I give no consideration to those inferior moves other than I've learned not to do that. But I do thank you for this lively debate and your presenting an alternative view to our sure victory.
wildfiree 05-Jun-11, 13:00	I'll look at the comments above and the position tomorrow, I'm a bit tired now.
easy19 05-Jun-11, 13:35	The Point is You are seeing the rare bird in the tree that shamash where pointing at.! But would you have seen that bird if he had not been pointing at it..?
tigerblood 05-Jun-11, 13:50	Deleted by tigerblood on 05-Jun-11, 13:56.
tigerblood 05-Jun-11, 13:57	I get your point... "When you point to the moon and watch your finger, you miss all the heavenly glory." - Bruce Lee You brought up an excellent point and expressed it quite nicely. I can tell you with certainty that I would not "have seen the rare bird if Shamash had not been pointing at it" but Freddy what is known is known and can't be unknown after the fact. Now that I know not to bother with meaningless pawns there's no going back. Mission accomplished, if the mission was indeed to learn from men of your caliber. Then I've learned!
wildfiree 08-Jun-11, 07:16	Allright I have put some thought in this, but I think the best move now is first to recapture the pawn on g5, I've considered both of your moves Freddy, but recapturing seems to me the most logical thing to do. Later on we can play the moves you suggested, either a6 or h6, to start an attack.
shamash 08-Jun-11, 09:25	ok then 34 fxg5 so as to continue the thread of the position, to continue what we are aiming for: not just in moves, but in the concepts with which we began, and the goals with which we will finish.
shamash 12-Jun-11, 11:24	Deleted by shamash on 12-Jun-11, 11:44.
shamash 12-Jun-11, 11:49	The way to win Queen and Rook endings For all practical purposes, this is becoming a Queen and Rook endgame. game And how do you win a Queen and Rook endgame? In this case, by combining an attack on Black's King with positional probing of Black's weakened pawn structure.
tigerblood 13-Jun-11, 03:25	But what now? Our opponents have made a gutsy move. Instead of retreating they're offering a sacrifice. This is starting to get interesting. Do we take the bishop? That's what they want. Shamash's two tier strategy sounds daring and sound. But what is our next move? Our opponents are desperate due to our consecutive powerhouse moves but desperation leads to innovation. This could get tricky...
easy19 13-Jun-11, 04:19	It not so hard... But i have 3 choices you can analyze and find a good continuation   A : 35.h6 gxh6 36.? B : 35.gxf6 gxf6 36.? C : 35.a6 Qe7 36.?
tigerblood 13-Jun-11, 05:03	Thanks Easy! Ok, I'll give it a go. I'll work on it this afternoon and come up with something, I hope. This goes back to your original idea.
tigerblood 13-Jun-11, 08:39	Hmmmm..., I still don't know... Freddy, this is the parameters you set forth, with my continuation of 36. A: 35.h6 gxh6 36.gxf6 - I worked this out a few different ways up to move 42. and it always came out nicely. B: 35.gxf6 gxf6 36.Bh6 - This looks good. C: 35.a6 Qe7 36.gxf6 - I don't think they'd move Qe7. I think they'd move b6 locking us in. So, right now I think h6 is "the move". But there were so many variations possible that I can't see that I don't know if it's worth not grabbing the bishop right away - which is choice B. So it comes down to A or B. I hope that helps shine some clarity on the situation. What do you guys think?
easy19 13-Jun-11, 09:43	I wait for sonata to come up whit his idea,s
wildfiree 13-Jun-11, 09:47	I'm with Debbie on the move h6. It seems to be a good move and has some nice continuation possibilities. gxf6 is allright, but does not win immediately, and a6...I just don't like the move, I dont think it adds something to our attack.
easy19 13-Jun-11, 11:15	Nice   So both of you for option A I think Shamch will go for Option B and i think he also will explain why
shamash 13-Jun-11, 11:24	sack and strip Watch and learn. If your king is under siege and the attacker is coming at you with more pieces than you have for defense, what is the prudent thing to do? Bring up another defender. Even better, if with the same move you can save one of your potential defenders from capture. So Black's best move for 34... would have been 34...Be7, bringing up another defender to protect the assailed King while at the same time saving this Bishop from capture. So what does our opponent do? Not only does Black shy away from the best move -- Once more he picks one of the worst moves he could choose. Are We defeating Black? -- Or is Black's team playing this out like an endgame study where Black is finding a help-mate: and defeating himself. About our 35th move in response: Defenders do not grow on trees, nor do bishops; and damned if we are going to let this one crawl back a square to protect that scrawny King. The move is 35 gxf6. This move wins. It's the tactical equivalent of sack and strip in American football. Like stripping the opponent's receiver of the football, We are stripping the King of another defender. 35 h6 prolongs the agony, where Black retains enough material to bring his Queen over to help shore up his defense. (In the 35 h6 line, We Might still pick up the bishop in a couple of moves, after Black's g7 pawn takes our (now)h-6 pawn, by capturing with the rook; but then our own rook blocks a potential check by our bishop on g5, and we have invested more tempo than need be in picking up material.) Our move is 35 gxf6. This line puts away the game, and ends the agony.
tigerblood 13-Jun-11, 12:36	Deleted by tigerblood on 13-Jun-11, 12:39.
tigerblood 13-Jun-11, 12:40	Sack and Strip Well this was an excellent lesson. Thanks Easy for making me go through the maneuvers I see things clearer now. Shamash's explanation of losing a tempo with option A is very sound and I would hate for that "scrawny King" to get protection from a piece we could take out now. Why live to fight another day when we could fight successfully today? So, my vote is gxf6 - sack 'em and strip 'em.
wildfiree 14-Jun-11, 23:45	Allright Your explantaion made a lot of sense shamash, you are very right and the move to do is not h6 but gxf6, let's defeat black.
shamash 15-Jun-11, 00:21	Freddy's wise advice, and the future of the position When we choose a move, it's not the best Next move we are looking for, but the best plan, the most practical sequence of moves, or, the way I think of planning: the best target-sequencing, like lining up your shots in a game of pool. What Freddy asks us to do is to think out in concrete terms not just the next move, but the most promising line. Sure, I used words and concepts to explain my rationale, and talked about the history of the position. But no matter how alluringly logical a conceptual plan may sound, its soundness lies not in the moves that have gone before, but in the Future of the position. We always are fighting for the future of the position. Like a hockey player skating to where the puck is going to be. So calculate out the lines, then evaluate and compare the resultant positions. Freddy asks us to think out the sequence of moves ahead, and this is always, Always a useful compass in finding the most promising candidate move. More than useful, calculating the consequences and most likely outcomes of candidate moves is important in any phase of the game. In the endgame it is crucial. Because late-stage endgames can be calculated out exactly. (For more on finding candidate moves, I recommend "The Chess Mind," by Gerald Abrahams. For more on calculating their consequences, see Alexander Kotov and Jonathan Tisdall and Valeri Beim and Jacob Aagaard.)
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