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From	Message
marvin2 25-Sep-11, 08:47	(damalfi): 17.Qf4,Nf5:18.g4, ... would be nice for us, but I see it as a weakness in white's pawn structure that they don't need. They have other ways to break out pawn struture without creating weaknesses in theirs. The idea of a knight in e6 is good, although I prefer the knight from d7. Why? Because if I don't play my d7 knight anywhere he is still blocking my bishop and exposed to the threat e6. One possibility could be play Kb6 if e6 is not played by white at this moment. In that case I must play Be6 if possible because I need to put this bishop out of its initial position and connect the rooks (very important because I will need the rooks connected right now!). Nf5, g7 is good if white doesn't exchange (and they shouldn't because they will lose they last bishop). (gcah2006): 1. ...,Nf5: 2. Bxf5, gxf5: 3. e6, fxe6: 4. Nxc5, ... What about? 4. ..., e5. With a possible continuation 20.Nxc5,e5:21.Nxd7,Bxd7:22.Nxe5,Qd6 (ramblinwreck) You're right it's quite dangerous but I can try Nd7f8 and g6. But, at least, I will use my knights, exchange pieces and release the bishop it that could happen (which will fit with my plan). Anyway, I'm talking about my plan but mine IS NOT THE PLAN and, of course, is not the better one. Which one is yours? Please, let me know it to think in a better move next time.
ramblinwreck 25-Sep-11, 12:42	further thoughts on ...Nf5 I very much agree with Vicente's notion that a knight exchange is very beneficial to us, as the white knight threatening our c5 pawn is far more valuable than our pathetic d7 knight (that only plays defense and blocks our bishop). However, following Vicente's notion above, I don't think that the following looks very favorable for us: 17. ... Nf5 18. Bxf5 gxf5 19. e6 fxe6 20. Nxc5 e5 21. Nxd7 Bxd7 22. Nxe5 Qd6 23. Qg5+ Kf8 (23. Qg3+ and we need to be careful, else Kh8 24.Nf7#) 24. Nxd7+ Qxd7 25. Qf6+ Kg8 and the white queen dances dangerously close to our king. I would like to follow 20. Nxc5 with ...Nxc5 (aggressively initiate the exchange on our own). However, White would probably play 21. Qxb8 and we would gave given up a rook to take the white knight, leaving us as follows: We could play 20...b6 (although I don't love blocking off a future option of ...Nb6), which White could respond with 21. Nxd7 Bxd7; in any case, White's 21st move has to get the knight on c5 out of harm's way in the following: (unless of course White plays a zwischenzug like 21. Qg3+)
marvin2 25-Sep-11, 13:36	I agree that 22.Nxe5,Qd6 it's not a good idea. And that we can't play 22.Nxe5,Nxc5 because we lost too much. 22.Nxe5,b6 is a nice option, even if we keep in mind that white doesn't necessarily has to exchange (they could play 22.Nxe5,Nxe6). And if 21.Qg3+,Qg7 could be play. It would be great if white decided to exchange queens! (i.e. 21.Qg3+,Qg7:22.Nxe6,Qxg3:23.fxg3,d3) If all were like this, for me it's not so bad! Worse pawn structure but we will have Knight-Bishop against Knight- Knight in an open endgame, and a pass-pawn!
easy19 26-Sep-11, 22:55	8 hours remaining. i see some team work good good.
damalfi 27-Sep-11, 17:09	Nf5 it appears that I won't be able to contribute much more. I only would like to point that in ramblinweck's pi¡ost, the last position leads to a crushing Rxe6. Anyway, black's position looks very bad.
ramblinwreck 28-Sep-11, 11:34	We'll miss your insight, Davide (damalfi)! You're correct of course, I missed Rxe6 on the continuation involving b6. I agree Black is in bad shape, but it is fun to see what we can do to attempt to salvage the dire dilemma we have placed ourselves in.
marvin2 28-Sep-11, 14:32	Am I wrong or the moves have already been done? 17. ...,Nf5: 18.Bxf5, ... If that's the case my next move is clear 18. ...,gxf5
easy19 28-Sep-11, 14:47	update soon still at work
easy19 28-Sep-11, 14:50	Club it is your move game < is here Annotation updated asap 10. Nb3 c5 11. Qe2 O-O 12. Rc1 Nd7 13. Bd3 Re8 14. O-O Qe7 15. Rfe1 g6 16. Qe4 Rb8 17. Qf4 Nf5 18. Bxf5
dmaestro 28-Sep-11, 18:39	Obviously gxf5.
damalfi 29-Sep-11, 00:50	Of course, gxf5 Nothing more...
bigpeta 29-Sep-11, 07:16	gxf5 loses badly follow this line 11. ..gxf5 12.e6 fxe6 13. Nxc5 Nxc5 14 Qxb8 and we lose a R. I have shown this line previously we are in a bad position whatever we play. I suggest Nf8 the follows Bxc8 Rbxc8 and we are at least no worse off. Quite frankly is i were playing black here on my own i would be considering resigning.
damalfi 29-Sep-11, 08:35	13... Nxc5? Better 13... e5 11. ..gxf5 12.e6 fxe6 13. Nxc5 of course not NxN, but e5. If: 14. NxNd7, BxNd7, 15. Rxe5, Qg7 (say), and 16. RxRe8+, RxR, 17. Nxd4 (say) Re4 (say), 18. Qb8+, Kf7, and we are a pawn down, and we probably will lose another, but it's not so catastrophic... If: 14. Rxe5 or Nxe5 white loses a piece, while we are blocking the way to the rook. If: 14. Qxf5, NxNc5, 15. Qxe5, QxQ, 16. NxQ, b6 and we are a piece up. If: 14. Qg3+, Qg7, and roughly we will lose the central pawns, but again, it's playable.
bigpeta 29-Sep-11, 09:09	we are already down a N for pawn and you talk about losing 1 or 2 more and against a 2000+ rating you think there is a chance?? and in your line 17 would be Rc7 putting the fox in the coup.
marvin2 29-Sep-11, 13:32	I was writing one of those marvelous post when I refresh the page and lost all of my notes   So, I'll try to summarize. After 18.Bxf5,gxf5: 19.e6,fxe6: 20.Nxc5, ... (we're assuming white's gone to play those moves): b6: No good because of Rxe6 and Rce1. Qf6: I was thinking in that one. I help to protect the d4 and e6 pawns, and put my queen out of the e-file. Nxc5: we don't need to play that. But in case we do so, we shouldn't play: 20. Nxc5,Nxc5: 21. Qxb8,Nd3 (trying to recover the rook) because of 22. Rxc8,Nxe1. In that case a possibility could be: 20. Nxc5,Nxc5: 21. Qxb8,b6. We have one pawn less but the position may be still playable. Anyway, we'll need at any moment to play b6 and move Bb7 afterwards. Thinking that we're trying to foresee possible continuations. I think whites next moves will be focused in doubling rooks in the e-file. Maybe helping with Ng5, putting pressure in the e6 pawn.
damalfi 29-Sep-11, 15:30	bigpeeta I do make mistakes, and often, to be faithful to the truth. But not the one you said, this time: After gxBf5, e6, fxe6 we aren't a piece under, look: Assuming white will play Nxc5, and we answer e5, the position will look like this: We should ask ourselves if white is going to play e6 or say, Ng5, supporting it. A possible following will be: Nf8, (e6, Bxe6, Nxc5, Rbd8, reaching this position: ...or Nf8, Rxc5, Rb-d8. ...or Nf8, Qg3. I don't say we will survive, but it's worth trying.
damalfi 29-Sep-11, 15:42	And If 17. Rc7, Red8, Rxf5, BxR, RxR+, KxR, QxB, we will reach this position: Yes, we are -3 in material. We can only hope to use the d pawn and try to control white, and we will probably fail, I agree. So Qg7 it's not the best move. Would you be able to suggest an improvement? I would try Qf6 instead... anyway...
bigpeta 30-Sep-11, 08:03	@damalfi the only improvement i would make would be resign this is a learning game and one of the biggest lessons to learn is when a game is lost. so on that basis i take no further part in this game.
marvin2 30-Sep-11, 08:29	Have we tried out all our possibilities? Are we sure there's no chance for a draw? There's also one lesson very important to learn: We must learn to fight. I've seen a lot of positions that seem not to have anything apparently to do with, and suddenly I happy idea and things changes. I'm sure that's not going to happen here but, at least, I'm going to try before surrender. Come on! Let's smash our brains a little bit more!
ramblinwreck 30-Sep-11, 10:37	...gxf5 I agree we should try some more before giving up. Maybe we will learn something. On the other hand, if we resign, then maybe it will be that much sooner before we start another game where there is more hope. But for now I still vote for playing through and playing 18...gxf5.
damalfi 30-Sep-11, 10:56	It's interesting ...to know whether if you (the other) guys believe we can get out of this one.
marvin2 30-Sep-11, 12:07	I look at the board and I see that we're only in the move 18th. And I just can't believe that we are talking about surrender without fitting. Now it's when you really can learn an important lesson, how to deal with a bad position! Of course, we don't need to wait for the checkmate but I think it's still a bit early to 'throw in the towel' (I think you say like that in English). Anyway, it's the club's choice so here are my votes: - I vote for keep playing. - If so, my vote is for gxf5.
easy19 01-Oct-11, 02:05	8 hours remaining. Keep going guys you are now at the point that you can learn most from the game. Relax and find the best moves possible..
dmaestro 01-Oct-11, 08:25	Why resign now? Our next move is forced, gxf5.
gcah2006 01-Oct-11, 11:36	I'm a bit busy and the next move is fairly forced, but I just wanted to add a comment. I definitely want us to play on because I think of it like this; if the board was reversed and we were playing White against the same opponent, do I feel confident I could convert this into a win? Answer is that I don't - at least, not yet. Therefore I think I have something to learn about how to convert this winning position for White.
easy19 01-Oct-11, 12:40	Club it is your move game < is here 10. Nb3 c5 11. Qe2 O-O 12. Rc1 Nd7 13. Bd3 Re8 14. O-O Qe7 15. Rfe1 g6 16. Qe4 Rb8 17. Qf4 Nf5 18. Bxf5 gxf5 19. e6
damalfi 01-Oct-11, 18:01	Well I think that all we had to say about this move, it's already said. No real choice here: fxe6, and if Nxc5, e5. It won't hold, probably, but I cannot find exactly why. Some help?
gcah2006 01-Oct-11, 22:59	I wasn't going to say much but I suppose I can add something. Just a quick glance and I think White progresses with this move. 19... fxe6 20. Nxc5 e5 21. Nxd7
ramblinwreck 02-Oct-11, 20:32	19...fxe6 as already discussed
easy19 02-Oct-11, 22:47	Club it is your move game < is here gameknot.com < Annotation is here 10. Nb3 c5 11. Qe2 O-O 12. Rc1 Nd7 13. Bd3 Re8 14. O-O Qe7 15. Rfe1 g6 16. Qe4 Rb8 17. Qf4 Nf5 18. Bxf5 gxf5 19. e6 fxe6 20. Nxc5
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