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From	Message
bigpeta 14-Nov-12, 04:04	seems like agreement all round So i will play NxN. I am pleased that nobody suggested exd4 which would be bad for us. @kepplersteve the N is not a free piece. We have traded B for N & p so it is the pawn that we are up by. Just a word of caution in general. If a competent player offers an exchange advantage then be very careful to look at what they are getting for the material on offer. Usually they are looking for increased mobility and/or space. Such is the case with the offer of an early pawn in the gambit openings. In this case i dont think this applies but do bear it in mind for future games that you play.
kepplersteve 16-Nov-12, 08:06	Poor Choice of Words, Knight was not free If we didn't take his Knight we'd be down Bishop. Might not get a chance to make it up.
the-sigularity 16-Nov-12, 08:53	I understand Kepp The statement "the N is a free piece at this point is not incorrect". That WN was taken without future loss, ("at that point".)
bigpeta 21-Nov-12, 01:56	Move 7 Board Position Latest moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4 Bxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Be3
efc8 21-Nov-12, 04:29	New vote game For developing purpose I am voting for d6
the-sigularity 21-Nov-12, 19:23	Vote 7........Nc6 7.......Nc6 Because there are 2 attacks on the N, where we are about to suffer a 6 point loss (N and Pawn). And we lose our grip on the d5 central control. Also the N will be additional support for our e5 pawn. In my opinion, d6 will be an alternative, after we 0-0
efc8 21-Nov-12, 22:21	New vote game But ..........Nc6 would be the third time it is moved. True it is attacked by a Bishop and a Queen but can only be captured sensibly by the Bishop, capture by the Queen is out of the question period. To allow the capture by the Bishop isn't a bad trade for black. The only negative involve with this trade is giving up the pawn which will be capture by the Queen. If we are hungry and not worried about development, what about Nxp The danger is we are up against a higher rated player who has castled already.
bigpeta 22-Nov-12, 02:04	the Q will capture BxN pxB Qxp So as stealth invader points out we would lose on the trade and give back the pawn that we just won.
efc8 22-Nov-12, 03:17	New vote game Yes Pete, I did pointed out giving up the won pawn after the BxN pxB Qxp exchange. My question is should we hold on to the pawn at all cost? or continue to develop our pieces and castle
bigpeta 22-Nov-12, 07:48	holding the pawn we should not hold on at all cost but the objection raised in saving the N was that to save it would mean moving it for a third time. Now 'dont move a piece many times in the opening' is a guideline and not a rule written in stone. you have to know these guidelines but the gateway to good chess is knowing when to ignore them. This is one of those times. We must save the N.
efc8 22-Nov-12, 10:18	New Vote Game As a chess apprentice is there a guide or reason to save this Knight at all cost / when to ignore the rule?
bigpeta 22-Nov-12, 10:44	guides and reasons @ecf8 No there are no guides or reasons. It all comes down to experience which is what this group and its vote game are all about. So a question for you - why would you not save the N?
hogfysshe 22-Nov-12, 13:59	re "don't move a piece many times...," a related idea is... move all your pieces once before moving any piece a second time UNLESS there is an opportunity or threat. [another idea not set in concrete] for example, if it was free for the taking, you wouldn't pass on capturing your opponent's queen in order to castle. you'd capture a free rook, too. you'd probably even trade a knight for a rook. the point of any of these captures is to leave you in a better position than your opponent. if you will not be better, don't proceed. in our game, while our rook or queen are not being threatened, our knight and perhaps our overall POSITION are being threatened. and our opponent may be threatening to gain a better position. we aren't necessarily free to develop "normally." whatever we do, it should make us better or him worse or both. and we should prevent him from making himself better or us worse or both. if moving a piece a second time leaves us better overall than if we don't move it (and ESPECIALLY if no other move makes us better than moving that piece a second time), then we should move it.
joejoe_65324 22-Nov-12, 21:53	pawn c5? pawn c5? looks good for me. it proctects the knight and also we are abe to let the queen out on the other side.
the-sigularity 22-Nov-12, 22:39	Pawn c5? If we were to move to c5, then ion might move to c3 attacking our N and after our N is forced to retreat, the W B would be free to remove that c5 pawn, and control the f7 A3 diagonal which prevents us from 0-0. While that condition exists our K cannot castle over a square that is controlled by our opponent.
efc8 23-Nov-12, 00:21	New vote game Pete, wouldn't save the Knight because of rules and leave white with a pair of Bishops.
bigpeta 23-Nov-12, 02:13	pawn c5 @stealth invader very good and correct analysis on why this is a bad move. So can we have a decision on saving the N or not.
kepplersteve 23-Nov-12, 05:38	Nc5 Best move to me at this time Pete & Hofysshe Thanks for these pointers, I've been playing for awhile but not at your level.
hogfysshe 23-Nov-12, 18:56	voting for 7. ...Nc6 keeps our N and e-pawn in the game. keeps the threat on his e-pawn. gives us as many pieces influencing the center as he has, more or less. hopefully, this will bring some stability that will let us get back to bringing more pieces into play.
efc8 24-Nov-12, 06:25	New vote game I see the logic for Nc6. I agree to it.
the-sigularity 24-Nov-12, 15:02	@kepplersteve On your last entry I believe you voted Nc5, but intended to vote: 7......Nc6 if this is what you meant, then: @Pete, I believe we have four votes for this move.
kepplersteve 25-Nov-12, 21:28	Nc6 Sorry for my typo. Yes, You're right, I got to stop doing this late at night.
fr1ar 26-Nov-12, 17:09	Nc6 Sorry, I've been away from a PC for awhile. Nc6 looks good to me
bigpeta 28-Nov-12, 01:18	Move 8 Board Position Latest moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4 Bxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Be3 Nc6 8.Nc3
the-sigularity 28-Nov-12, 09:55	Vote 8......d6 8........d6 for development to open the QB file. At this time, in my opinion, I see not urgency to castle, and also, once the K is castled, on one side or the other it gives the opponent the direction for concentrating an attack on the K, therefore we should keep our option to castle at either side if possible, until our pieces are fully developed and better able to fend off any future aggression.
efc8 28-Nov-12, 10:42	New vote game White has the d5 square covered with 4 pieces, black has only one Can we allow that?
the-sigularity 28-Nov-12, 10:56	d5 control Yes, it's true. However, If the WN moves to that square, we can capture the e pawn. I do not believe he will trade a B or Q for our N, but I would certainly welcome further input and discussion from our other members on this.
efc8 28-Nov-12, 11:42	New vote game f3 can prevent black capturing the e4 pawn and neutralize the f6 N
bigpeta 29-Nov-12, 01:16	next reply from white I think it is a fairly safe bet that whites next move will be f3 to support his central pawn.
the-sigularity 29-Nov-12, 01:42	The question was: Because white has 4 pieces covering the d5 square, could we allow that. I offered reasons why that should be no immediate threat, and further discussion was that W could move f3 to protect e4. Therefore if we move 8......d6, do you believe his response to that move would still be f3? If not, what would you suggest our next move should be instead of 8........d6? Would you suggest8.........Ne7? ( with 9.......c4 to help d5 control?) Anyone?
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