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From	Message
hogfysshe 09-Jun-13, 18:53	leaning but not that far right now, I'm leaning toward 30. ...Rxd4. But I have to admit that it is partly out of wanting to see if Ion can win with the main difference being his B vs our N. I don't know if white's doubled pawns are a weakness in this case, though I assume they are not an advantage. BUT, I also agree with zed2 and note that Pete, in his B vs N thread, points out that with pawns on both flanks a B can have an edge over an N. I wonder if it is a factor that our queenside pawns are all on white right now (for example could we skirmish on the kingside first and would this reduce some of the B's edge?). what I really can't decide is whether or not we would be better with or without a rook exchange. with an exchange, we'd be faced with testing the B vs N question, ...perhaps to our disadvantage. without, we'd be faced with playing a master with R+B vs our R+N. In other words, would we gain from depriving Ion of the option to coordinate R + B? Or, do we think we can outplay him if the rooks stay on the board? hoping more discussion will tip the scales.
hogfysshe 09-Jun-13, 18:55	make that 29, not 30 oops. above post should read 29. ...Rxd4.
zed2 09-Jun-13, 19:22	Re8 Thanks for your thoughts on my post hogf....Still leaning towards Re8 even after considering your comments. See what others think about it....
alex388 09-Jun-13, 19:30	I vote Rxd4 Lets see: Our knight is well placed, our queen-side pawn are all in white squares, but the bishop could out-play the knight or at least restrict his possible moves a lot (specially in this kind of position with pawns in both sides). The thing is that the d-column is the most active one right now, and I feel that moving, for example, Re8 is giving white to much (I feel that we are loosing activity). I prefer to exchange rooks and play first with our king.
zed2 09-Jun-13, 19:58	Draw if Rxd4 I think it will probably end a draw but I have had a big string of losses so don't have much confidence right now in my abilities in analysing a game! I'm happy to go with whatever the majority decides.
efc8 10-Jun-13, 03:10	ionadowman votegame I vote Rxd4 then position our pieces on the white squares to neutralize the Bishop
hogfysshe 10-Jun-13, 04:49	no complaints if the game ends in a draw ...not that I'm not playing for a win. I think any B vs N advantage (which may be less pronounced in this game) is still there if each side also has a rook. I wonder if it in fact can be amplified. So again we come back to skill and experience (edge for white) and I like stealing Ion's toys. Kings look more or less equal in terms of reaching the center. Voting 29. ...Rxd4. Will be VERY interested to hear any master's comments re this choice in the post-game.
bigpeta 10-Jun-13, 06:35	Rxd4 wins so playing that for us and Ion has posted a conditional of Bxd4. No surprise there. So we have the classic ending of B vs N for you to analyse. Board Position Latest moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4 Bxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Be3 Nc6 8.Nc3 h6 9.f4 exf4 10.Bxf4 d6 11.Nd5 0-0 12.Bxh6 Ng4 13.Bf4 Nce5 14.Bb3 c6 15.Ne3 Qb6 16.Qd2 Be6 17.h3 Nxe3 18.Qxe3 QxQ 19.BxQ Bxb3 20.axb3 a6 21.Rad1 Rad8 22.Rd2 f6 23.Rfd1 Nf7 24.Bb6 Rd7 25.Bc5 Ng5 26.Rxd6 Rxd6 27.Bxd6 Rd8 28.Rd4 Nxe4 29.Bc5 Rxd4 30.Bxd4
snowman100 10-Jun-13, 14:05	f5 for me. For the reasons in my last post I think the knight is already on it's best square. Lets make him nice and comfy with our pawns and King. He is going to find it difficult if not impossible to break through on the Kingside and we are better placed for Queenside play than White.
alex388 10-Jun-13, 16:59	Kf7 Lets get the king to action. In end-games the king MUST be an active piece! Another good option as mentioned is f5
efc8 10-Jun-13, 20:23	ionadowman votegame The Bishop is black and our pieces will be safe on the white squares, therefore, f5 or Kf7 can be played
kepplersteve 11-Jun-13, 17:24	c5 Protected by Knight Has to move, trade or lose the B Pete we're getting close on posts, do you have to start a new thread?
zed2 11-Jun-13, 17:44	Kf7 I agree with Alex. Kf7 gets him into the action. He becomes a powerful piece in the end game and his position is very important and then we can move our other pieces in concert with him.
bigpeta 12-Jun-13, 01:09	important point Alex has raised an important end game point. That is the K must be an active player. For my own guideline i am usually happy for the K to become active when the Qs are off the board. More specifically in a K & pawn ending then the K should be in front of the pawns. See my earlier thread on anatomy of an endgame. This is a general comment and does not in any way endorse any of the moves suggested so far. steve - yes the limit is 300 posts so i will start a new thread when i post the next move.
snowman100 12-Jun-13, 09:32	Kf7 OK as I said I'm open to persuasion. Although all roads seem to lead to Rome I agree Kf7 is technically more correct so Kf7 now has my vote.
hogfysshe 12-Jun-13, 19:39	can't tell... if we play ...Kf7 and he plays g4, will we regret not having played ...f5, first. of course I want the king in the center asap. seems like white reaches e3 and f3 very fast no matter which route we take. am going to review the three endgame threads to see if that will help me decide. if I'm too slow, please move ahead. I won't complain about either of the options mentioned so far.
snowman100 13-Jun-13, 04:04	My vote is now F5 Fickle or what?...back to my original choice f5!...That's my final vote!!
alex388 13-Jun-13, 13:59	im also changing to f5 Just because i dont want white ti reach g5
zed2 13-Jun-13, 19:43	Kf7 Am I the lone ranger here?
hogfysshe 14-Jun-13, 04:00	50-50 and no time Re my post of 12 Jun, "can't tell" was the main thing. In wondering about the ...Kf7 g4 scenario, I was not leaning either way (well, maybe a little toward f5 but not confidently). The demands on my time right now are through the roof and I still have not been able to give this a good look. Hope you all will analyze and make a good choice if I can't chime in. I do point out that the ...f5 scenario does create some issues with our g-pawn (being attacked by the B as it is). Ideally I'd play out both ...f5 and ...Kf7 for a while on the analysis board and also review the endgame topics. But as it is I was only able to make two moves in my regular games yesterday before I fell asleep due to having been up since 5:00 am. At the moment, I may have unleaned back to 50-50. So count me as firmly undecided but happy with whatever the group decides. I encourage you to see if there's something you strongly dislike about ...f5 before casting your final final vote, protection of the g-pawn and any delays or forced moves that causes being part of your evaluation.
alex388 14-Jun-13, 21:04	I feel that f5 its a little better than Kf7, and after f5 Kf7 its the move..
zed2 14-Jun-13, 21:40	Kf7 I would like to move the king not the pawn and get him out into the action. He is very powerful. Unless we have a plan of action for the pawns or a postional advantage I think moving the pawn is the lesser of the two moves. Perhaps in the end it won't matter but I would like to hear Pete's opinion after we have made the move.
bigpeta 15-Jun-13, 02:50	looks like f5 all the moves suggested - f5 Kf7 c5 are playable and would not cause any problems. Of the 3 i would have chosen f5 as well. Only by a small margin. c5 would force the B away from the a1 h8 diagonal where it is quite strong. Kf7 is good endgame practice bringing the K into play. f5 just cements our N in a strong position controlling a lot of the board. so i will play f5 for us. with the limit of 300 posts per thread i will begin a new continuation thread when i post ion's next move.
bigpeta 26-Jun-13, 08:02	Move 31 posted for those of you who have not yet found the new continuation. I have posted the next move there.
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