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 Salvation presentation"repent of sin" or "turn from sin" in the message/prayer? In Acts chapter 8 the Ethiopian Eunuch was not told to turn from his sins. In Acts 16 the Philippian Jailer was not told to turn from his sins. While I believe most if not all true believers will turn from their sins I don't think it should be part of a salvation message. Salvation is about what Jesus did. While not a work turning from sins is still something we do. |
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"10Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either Go From now on sin no more." I feel that turning from our sin needs to be part of the salvation message. I spent a great deal of time with a friend at work on this subject. He argued that salvation only requires that he accept Jesus' gift and nothing more as in Ephesians 2:8 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; While this is strictly true, it could also be said that if any one does not turn from, or repent of, their sins then they are not truly saved. When we are saved the Holy Spirit begins to work within us to start the transformation to a more Christ like life. Whils we can never attain that perfection, we should be at least trying to improve ourselves. |
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Repentance is implicit in the message of Christ. From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. No repentance = no salvation. Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Particularly in a world filled with sin and blatant ungodliness such as we find ourselves in today, the concept of REPENTANCE must be taught and understood by any who would make claim to be calling out to God for salvation. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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Witnessing in Acts book of Acts I can find no example when the apostles when first witnessing to individuals tell people to turn from their sins. In addition to the Ethiopian eunuch and the Philippian Jailer I mentioned earlier, Cornelius in Acts 10 is not told to turn from his sins and in Acts 13 at Antioch turning from sin is not mentioned. Should not our witnessing model be taken from the apostles after they were filled with the holy spirit? I certainly think that most if not all believers will turn from their sins. And it is a sign of true faith and conversion. And I am not trying to encourage a "easy believe-ism" message. Pastors and others should certainly preach turning from sins and living for the Lord. I just think a salvation message should contain no more and no less than what is required for salvation. And that I believe is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. So I say turn from your sins and be baptized. Just don't trust in those things. Trust only in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ to save you. |
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Repentance not a thought would also have us believe that faith too is a "work" when neither faith or repentance is a work. Repentance is an admission of guilt. Taking sides with God against ourselves. You cannot be saved unless you repent. Faith is reaching out the hand to receive that which we could not attain for ourselves. The natural man under the conviction of the Holy Spirit is well able to repent and to believe, should he so choose. One need not be saved in order to cry out to God for Salvation. I think your problem with repentance lies more with that train of thought which sees repentance as a "work" produced "after" salvation. This train of thought is unbiblical in my view. Salvation FOLLOWS repentance and faith. Repentance and faith do not FOLLOW salvation as you and others might have us believe. The gospel was never intended for a select "chosen few". It is readily available to all, and all have means and opportunity to accept when God speaks to each one in turn as He so graciously does. John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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Repent For me this means to correct my way of living rather often. Is that the same as to repent? When Jesus told Peter to "follow ME" I guess there where things Peter had to repent from. And there where probably things he had to correct later on also. Is it okay to consider the things we do not as work that save us,but perhaps as things that prepare as to receive salvation from Christ? John 3:5 |
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Interesting perspective sister! Similarly Jesus said to those thinking that all was well between themselves and God, Matthew 3:7-9 "7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." The challenge to follow Christ is at the same time a challenge for us to let go of our sinful ways. This does not earn us salvation as you correctly pointed out sister, but it does dispose God to take our plea for salvation seriously and to breathe that new life into us when He so chooses to do so. Jesus also said, John 8:31 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" Insincere conversions are in no short supply in our day and age IMO. Nobody wants to be told that they must repent of their sins anymore. This is a great tragedy by my reckoning. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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save you. Believe (trust) in Jesus and show the world by turning from your sins. Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." (NIV) Isn't observing the law the same as "repenting of sin"? Blessings to all john |
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The law It seems like Paul often compared the old law of Moses with the new law of Christ. The law that the jews observed would not save them,but they had to eccept Christ. Not really sure what I am trying to say here but I am atleast close to the truth |
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Drexel Christ. Don't trust in your repentance from sins to save you. Believe (trust) in Jesus and show the world by turning from your sins." Trusting in the thoroughness of our repentance would not be that much different than trusting in works of the law to save us. I am not advocating that. Our TRUST must be in Christ alone as you correctly point out. My point is rather, one must turn FROM something (idols, sinful habits, unholy living etc. etc.) if one is genuinely turning TO Christ. Our hearts can only fixate on ONE, not TWO masters. Matthew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Too many people IMO, turn to God in word only and not in heart. That's all I am really trying to say. Repentance is the clearest Bible word that I know of to describe the process of turning away from evil, confessing it, despising it, and forsaking it because of a choice to turn to God and His Christ. As you suggested earlier I think, repentance and faith are really two sides of the same coin. When we genuinely turn TO Christ, we genuinely turn FROM sin in the same moment. Therefore we are wise to ALWAYS speak of the need for repentance when we speak to souls about turning TO Christ. When they turn TO Christ, they need to understand that they must be willing at the same time to turn FROM their sin. Both faith and repentance are needed. Both are called for. Neither one is a "work". Neither one is an appeal to "law-keeping" as a means of Salvation as I understand it. Ezekiel 14:6 "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations." 1 Thessalonians 1:9 "For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;" Repentance would only equate with law-keeping if one were actually trusting in the repentance itself as a means of salvation. Nobody is suggesting this here. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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solascriptura 14-Apr-09, 15:59 |
bigpaul "Faith is reaching out the hand to receive that which we could not attain for ourselves. The natural man under the conviction of the Holy Spirit is well able to repent and to believe, should he so choose. One need not be saved in order to cry out to God for Salvation." This statement leads one to believe that the natural man, we are speaking of a unregenerate person is able to repent and to believe. Scripture has an different story to tell. Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Mark 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. Eph 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. The above scriptures declare that a man can not reach up, grasp nor even have a want or desire to do so. Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. Just as the leopard can not change so man in his natural state can not do so either. Paul really means that there is no, not one. When one is dead in sins and trespasses, the lifting of the arm up is not possible. Dead really means dead. Only by intervention of the Holy Spirit and the change of nature can man then love Jesus. Then can he see the Lord and follow Him. (LOL, really, I am not picking on you bigpaul, you seem like a very like-able guy, just very Armenian in nature Blessings, Len |
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Nice to have you on the board Len. Christians like yourself you can only see the universe as a pre-determined thing. There are numerous problems with your view, but that does not mean that we cannot appreciate one another for our identity as believers in the lord Jesus Christ. I may give you a little more debate on this topic in a few days, but I'm content to leave it lie for the moment. Just briefly though, I would like to point out the following admission of yours. You said "The above scriptures declare that a man can not reach up, grasp nor even have a want or desire to do so." Those Scriptures teach no such thing. Consider the following Scriptures. Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." Hebrews 4:1 "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it." Matthew 7:21,22 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" These passages clearly teach that MANY desire to enter, but fall short or get sidetracked in one way or another from ever truly attaining the Salvation that they were SEEKING! So we see then that men can and do indeed seek the Lord, but MANY never enter in when all is said and done. This is a sobering fact. Another thing. You do not need to be regenerated/ born-again with new life, BEFORE putting your faith in Christ! That's unbiblical and just plain silly. Scriptures teach no such order of things. The regeneration/ new birth does not come until AFTER putting our faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. You've got it backwards Len. You have new life given first and then followed by belief in the Lord. The Bible always puts the faith (which you have spoken so highly of) before receiving the new life. John 1:12,13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The new birth is indeed an act of God, but it is an action of the Holy Spirit upon those that have first BELIEVED in Christ. Belief comes first. New life comes second. Acts 16:30,31 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" God is the prime mover in all of this however. He "lights EVERY MAN", He sends the invitation to whosoever will, and He commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent. If it were not for this universal call, indeed there would be none who would seek God entirely on their own. In this much Len and I can find agreement. Blessings Paul |
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solascriptura 15-Apr-09, 05:02 |
Deleted by solascriptura on 24-Apr-09, 11:16.
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I like your tone and your stated objective. Blessings Paul |
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Len appeals to "Your statement "That's unbiblical and just plain silly" probably is not the best. There are many whom believe that regeneration is prior to ones believing with all of their heart." Sorry Len, that really is silly if you expect people to believe as you do that people get regenerated/born again, BEFORE placing their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, and all you have to back up this idea is that "MANY BELIEVE THIS". That's not good Len. And it is all the more silly if you expect a Bible literalist like me to let that pass without pointing it out. Regards Paul |
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What the natural man can and cannot do. The problem arises when Len goes the extra (unbiblical) mile here, and states that man is not only incapable of genuine good works, but incapable of repentance and faith as well when he as a sinner comes under moral duress from the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. That is where Len and I definitely part company. In order to maintain this teaching of John Calvin commonly called, "total depravity" two major errors must be forced against the clear grain of Scripture. The first which I just point out now, is the erroneous belief that faith/repentance is actually a "WORK". If we were to allow that faith is actually a "WORK", then I submit that the whole argument of "Faith vs Works" in the Book of Romans becomes completely meaningless. Faith is not a work. A man who comes under the conviction that his works cannot please God, is at that point urged by the Holy Spirit to simply REPENT and BELIEVE in order to gain the gift of Eternal life. This is proper Biblical order. This is proper Biblical teaching. The second error that must be forced into ones theology as a result of this Calvinistic teaching of "total depravity", is the error which I pointed out earlier, to which Len has yet to respond. That error being that new life/regeneration is attained BEFORE believing in Christ! This error is very serious in my view, because it allows that people get saved by some mysterious process (Divine preselection), without ever coming through the proper, Bible method of Repentance and Faith. The adherents of "total depravity" can speak of "repentance and faith", only as "WORKS" which follow the new birth, not as means of attaining to the new birth. These are very serious errors indeed. In summation, Len and I are in full agreement about man's inability to do works which are genuinely pleasing to God. We differ greatly however on the issue of man's ability to exercise saving faith in his unredeemed state (regardless of the impulse and conviction of the Holy Spirit which would compel him to believe), and we differ greatly on how God's Salvation is accessed by such an unredeemed person. I say he repents and believes in order to be saved. Len says this is not possible. Len says that God must save him first before he can repent and believe. Hmmmmmmmm. Len's view cannot be supported from Scripture. He must therefore lean on his only remaining argument which is that "many believe this". That is not acceptable in my view. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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solascriptura 20-Apr-09, 15:48 |
Paul:The problem arises when Len goes the extra (unbiblical) mile here, and states that man is not only incapable of genuine good works," The position is not unbiblical at all. I have selected four scriptures that do teach man is not capable of genuine good works in his fallen state: Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. Rom 3:10-12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one Would you not have to agree with me Paul, from the witness of the old testament that every thought of fallen man’s heart is evil, that he does not do good, can that person do good whom is accustomed to doing evil? If not, at least agree with Paul the Apostle when he states “there is none that doeth good, no, not one” These are but a few of the scriptures which speak of how destitute we are prior to being born again. Man really is dead in his sins and trespasses. Paul:” If we were to allow that faith is actually a "WORK", then I submit that the whole argument of "Faith vs Works" in the Book of Romans becomes completely meaningless.” The “Works” in which Paul wrote were of course the 613 mitzvos , which are divided into 365 negative restrictions and 248 positive commands. So of course, faith does not fall into that category. However, Jesus did state “faith” or belief in Him was a work: John6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." Since Jesus considers believing in Him work, faith in that sense is a work, not to confuse apple and oranges here. In fact it would be the only meritorious work when considering salvation. Not only is it a work, but it is a saving faith. Not to be confused with the dead faith decried by James in his book. It is an everlasting faith that is a "gift of God". Paul:” "total depravity", is the error which I pointed out earlier, to which Len has yet to respond. That error being that new life/regeneration is attained BEFORE believing in Christ “ So far I think I have made a very good case for total depravity. Now the question that has been asked is: does “is new life/regeneration attained BEFORE believing in Christ”? I of course answer in the affirmative, new life/regeneration can only happen prior to believing for the following reasons: 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Natural man not only cannot receive but he considers those things foolish. Eph 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; The word "quickended" means: To make alive; to vivify; to revive or resuscitate, as from death or an inanimate state; hence, to excite; to, stimulate; to incite”. If a person really is dead in their sins and trespasses, how shall they believe? How can they receive anything least the Holy Spirit first enables them? Faith does come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But the believer must first be enabled to recognize God's word and not reject it. Paul has made many assertions, yet where does he derive such things? My authority is the very God breathed scriptures I have cited. It is not in the Church, not the Pope, nor those whom set in attendance with him. In his answer and charge not one scripture has came forth. He as stated that it was a "silly" thing to believe such a thing. However I must point out that Presbyterian membership of over 2.3 million and not to count those within the Reformed Baptist tradition all believe in total depravity. All of those folks believe regeneration occurs prior to believing in Christ. I do grant that does not in itself make it true, however the belief is not some strange sect out there in left field. In fact for many centuries it was main line Christianity. I really love these discussion, we find where our theology is, how and why we believe the things that we do. Paul challenges many things in which I believe to be true, yet only with the authority of man. The old adage, "Iron sharpens Iron" is most true here. Thanks for your response, Len |
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Great post Len. Nice tone. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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Clarification before responding to Len's post man is incapable of genuine good works (making it appear that I oppose this teaching). You misrepresent me here Len. We do not part ways until you begin talking about man's alleged incapability to REPENT and BELIEVE in his unsaved condition. THAT is the issue here Len. You make it sound as if I allow that unsaved man can do good works pleasing to GOD. That has NEVER been my position. Please do not misrepresent me on this. Here then is the "partial quote" as Len gives it. "The problem arises when Len goes the extra (unbiblical) mile here, and states that man is not only incapable of genuine good works," What I actually said was, "The problem arises when Len goes the extra (unbiblical) mile here, and states that man is not only incapable of genuine good works, but INCAPABLE OF REPENTANCE AND FAITH AS WELL when he as a sinner comes under moral duress from the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. That is where Len and I DEFINITELY part company." I wanted to clear that point up first before I deal with the rest of your post Len. I trust this was an oversight on your part, and not a deliberate attempt to misrepresent me. Regards Paul |
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solascriptura 22-Apr-09, 04:28 |
Att Paul This entire issue can be traced back to the Augustine and Pelagius. The following is a brief history of the issue Pelagianism has as its central theme the proposition that man's free-will is unimpaired, that no influence fetters or dominates his choice between good and evil, and that he has all the power he ever had, or needs to have, to will and to do what is spiritually good. This is in direct opposition to the concept of Adam's fall being the cause of man being, at first, a sinner. It argues that the consequences of Adam's sins were restricted to himself - that he did not transmit either guilt or corruption to his posterity. The Pelagian's argued that man enters the world with as pure a nature as Adam had possessed in innocence. From Pelagianism sprang Semi-Pelagianim: Semipelagianism is a Christian theological understanding about salvation; that is, the means by which humanity and God are restored to a right relationship. Semipelagian thought stands in contrast to the earlier Pelagian teaching about salvation (in which man is seen as effecting his own salvation), which had been dismissed as heresy. Semipelagianism in its original form was developed as a compromise between Pelagianism and the teaching of writers such as Augustine of Hippo, in whose work salvation is seen entirely as the free gift of God. In Semipelagian thought, therefore, a distinction is made between the beginning of faith and the increase of faith; while the latter is the work of God, the beginning of faith is an act of free will. It too has been considered a heresy by mainstream Christianity since the Second Council of Orange in 529. In the 16th century we see Martin Luther take up the battle crying sola fide, faith and faith alone. Sola Gratia, grace and grace alone. His debate with Erasmus on the issue fallen man was inseparably related to his entire doctrine from which sprang the Reformation. Later of course along comes Arminius and his followers whom developed the five articles of the Remonstrance which of course finds its foudation in Semi-Pelagianism. This document was condemned as heresy by the reformed churches at the Synod of Dort. From this of course we see the 5 points called TULIP which was the answer to the Remonstrance developed by the followers of Calvin. Is Len a Calvinist? Can we say Paul is Armenian? Do I believe Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Cromwell had all the answers? I would answer no to all of these questions, and yet the Fathers of t he Reformation do carry much weight. When one adheres to the teachings of Semi-Pelagianism, they have tipped their toe in the Tiber and perhaps have started the swim back home to Rome. So, we now see Len and Paul taking up the issue of "man's alleged incapability to REPENT and BELIEVE in his unsaved condition" I will of course take the affirmative, and state that man is unable to repent or believe in his unsaved condition. I assume Paul will take the negative and state that man is capable of repenting and believing in his unsaved condition. I will stand on the previous scriptures I have cited. I am looking forward to see what scripture Paul uses to press his point. May the Lord be blessed in all that is stated and to Him alone be the glory. Len |
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"There is none that doeth good" In the matter of SELF-JUSTIFICATION before God, the Apostle Paul indeed sets the record straight with his quote borrowed from Isaiah, "there is none that doeth good, no, not one". This is by no means a proof text for the exaggerated Calvinistic notion of "total depravity". Otherwise, one could not have the following verses also found in the Bible. Genesis 6:9 " These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a JUST MAN and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." Psalm 37:23 "The steps of a GOOD MAN are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way." Proverbs 11:17 "The merciful man DOETH GOOD to his own soul: but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh." Perhaps then a more balanced approach to this would be to heed the words of wise King Solomon who described the general estate of man with the following, Ecclesiastes 7:20 "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." Also the Apostle Paul allows, Romans 2:6,7 " Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:" Those of FAITH down through the ages (those within and those outside the chosen nation of Israel), have always led lives which were hallmarked by GOOD DEEDS. These deeds were GOOD because God calls them so. The people were GOOD because God calls them so as well. Hence Len cannot use the Romans 3:12 text "....there is none that doeth good, no, not one", to make his case for "total depravity". The Romans 3:12 text must be understood in the light of the specific argument that the Apostle Paul is making in the Book of Romans against SELF-JUSTIFICATION by WORKS! All of the good works a man might do (saved or unsaved), are tinged with a degree of "self" and "sin", and therefore can NEVER be used as an appeal to God for salvation on the grounds of person merit. The works are inherently flawed from the Divine perspective, and are useless for the purpose of saving the soul. The Psalmist would even write that "the plowing of the wicked is sin". Man cannot do good works in the ultimate sense of "good enough to earn passage into heaven". Only Christ could do works that would meet with such a standard as that. Len and I would find full agreement in this much. My next post will highlight our sharp disagreement on the issue of fallen man's ability, or alleged inability (as Len would hold to), to personally REPENT of his sins and BELIEVE the gospel message offered to "whosoever will". Blessings in Christ Paul |
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Is faith a "WORK"? Can sinners exerise "FAITH"? 365 negative restrictions and 248 positive commands. So of course, faith does not fall into that category." Sorry Len, the Scriptures attest otherwise. James 2:21-23 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." Abraham lived long before the giving of the law. There was no law, no circumcision, and certainly no "mitzvos", that his WORKS could be speaking of. The Apostle Paul speaks of WORKS as a principle, quite apart from FAITH in the passage cited here in James, and also in the book of Romans. Len cannot find room to fit "faith" into the category of WORKS by such mischievous means. The Scriptures will not allow it. Romans 4:1-3 "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by WORKS , he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Abraham's WORKS were not the "mitzvos". Abraham's WORKS were the good and righteous deeds that he did that as evidence of his genuine SAVING FAITH in God. The Scriptures credit the faith as being Abraham's not God's. Abraham's faith was tested several times over. Abraham's WORKS bore witness to the genuineness of that faith. So say the Scriptures. Notice Len the Scriptural order as it ALWAYS is. Abraham's faith comes FIRST, and the gift/imputation of righteousness (new life if you will) follows AFTER. "What must I do to be saved? BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou SHALT be saved" Acts 16:30,31 What then of the following statement by Len? Len: However, Jesus did state “faith” or belief in Him was a work: John6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." A wider view of the passage in John 6, reveals the following John 6: 24-29 "When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." Firstly, we see happening here what Len asserts is impossible. Unsaved (depraved as he puts it) individuals SEEKING for Jesus. Granted, their motives were not right as the passage points out, but here they were regardless, SEEKING out Jesus to hear what He had to say, and see what He could do. The unsaved do search out the Lord on occasion. They can and they do, both in the past and in the present. In the same manner, unsaved persons are free to examine these very posts, to evaluate for themselves whether the Christian message is something that they wish to buy into or not. People are FREE to do just that, objections by Len, and all the Reformed Baptist and Presbyterian preachers in the world notwithstanding! Then Jesus instructs that unsaved crowd to "LABOUR .......for the meat which endureth unto everlasting life". Whatever "LABOUR" could He be speaking of to those unredeemed people? Labour which could be undertaken by unredeemed man which would "endure unto everlasting LIFE"??? In response to that, the people then say to Jesus........ John6:28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" John 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." Was Jesus giving us all a definition of FAITH here (as Len would teach us), contradicting other parts of the Scripture as it would be written in years to come with this statement? Certainly not! He was teaching this crowd, smug in their confidence of being able to inherit the kingdom of God of the foundation of WORKS (observance of the law/membership within the covenant community of Israel etc. etc.), that the only thing they could do that God could accept was simply to "BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent"! In other words, Jesus says "LABOUR simply to believe" you people. You who are wanting so badly to WORK to please God; this is the only WORK (if you wish to call it that) that God is looking for from you! Similarly in another passage Jesus instructs His hears to .......... "STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." Luke 13:24 These are hardly things that Jesus would say to unredeemed/unregenerate souls if indeed such souls were incapable of "laboring to believe" or "striving to enter in". The very fact that Jesus says that "many......will seek to enter in", should be proof enough to those who would claim "solascriptura" as their personal motto, that the Calvinistic notion of "total depravity", is a totally overblown distortion of the real facts of Scripture. Such a notion is a grave error, totally injurious to the cause of the gospel, and must therefore be renounced and abandoned. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that all should come to repentance. Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.Blessings in Christ Blessings in Christ Paul M. Blackmore |
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Hmmm Is it fair to judge me for my wrongdoing if I dont have the ability to do better? Can we look at our conscience as whispering from the Lord,making us want to do good? Sinner or saved,we all have conscience. And perhaps there we can find a bridge between the referents here. |
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Well spoken antinephilehi! has the ability to do good in the sense of "good enough to get me into heaven". Jesus underlines this point in the following quote. Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Rhetorically Jesus was probing to see if the person He was speaking with, actually recognized Him as Deity. Hence the "Why callest thou me good?" The point remains however that ultimate good can only be performed by God Himself. That is, if the strictest definition of "good" be applied which is the case in Mark 10:18, and in the Romans 3:12 texts. All men have a conscience as you correctly pointed out. Even the murderer Cain was exhorted to resist the "sin crouching at his door", when he was in the throes of anger, and filled with jealous rage against his righteous brother Abel (whom he ended up killing). All men have a degree of control over what level of evil/sin that they choose to allow into their lives. All men are responsible for their own actions as you correctly point out. Len and I differ greatly in certain areas such as we have been discussing. We both trust in Christ for our personal salvation however, and we must be content to be united in that for the present. This controversy has existed within Christendom for ages, and if it does not get nasty, it can actually be a provocation to Bible study, even by those who have not yet placed their faith and trust in Christ for Salvation. Respectfully debated, this an be a beneficial discussion for all IMO. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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Flood coming to my city ....possibly. Hmmmm. through the center of our city, is nearing flood stage this weekend due to all the snow received this winter and recent heavy rains. I may suddenly have to go "off line" at a moments notice. I may or may not be able to follow through at present with many more carefully measured responses on this particular thread. Please excuse me in advance if I am called away because of sudden flood preparations. On top of that, I'm trying to complete my taxes by month end. This might very well be my last post for a week or two. I hope not, but such might very well be the case in the event of the river flooding. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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26 day chess vacation. Preparing for the worst. hoping for the best possible outcome with the flood. I may be offline for 1-3 weeks. It all depends on how high the water gets. Your prayers are coveted! Blessings in Christ to one and all. Paul M. Blackmore |
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solascriptura 24-Apr-09, 10:46 |
We Pray Len |
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solascriptura 24-Apr-09, 11:21 |
I found it necessary to delete this post Paul, thanks for having me. Gameknot is providing the perfect avenue for the best things in life, the Lord and a good game of chess!! Since we have established the common ground that there is a universal call sent out to all men to repent then there would be no value of pursuing that line. Your statement "That's unbiblical and just plain silly" probably is not the best. There are many whom believe that regeneration is prior to ones believing with all of their heart. LOL, they may not be as thick skinned as I am. I would suggest refraining from calling someones position silly. Should you decide to accept the mission to convince us different will not be acknowledged by the government. You may run the risk of burning at the stake...this message will not self destruct. Probably the first thing I saw was no response to the scriptures I used for the positive that natural man can not and will not choose righteousness. In order to keep any type of discussion on any type of manageable level three things must be considered: 1). You concede the point that natural man can not and will not choose righteousness prove by my list of scriptures. 2). You did not have the time to answer, so you elected to introduce new scripture to prove your point. 3.) You will answer the scriptures I have given at a later time. The phrase stated by you I have issue with is: "The natural man under the conviction of the Holy Spirit is well able to repent and to believe, should he so choose" You have given the following scripture as proof that man is able to repent and believe in his fallen state. Matthew 23:13 ,Hebrews 4:1 ,Matthew 7:21,22 John 1:12,13 ,Acts 16:30,31 I have given the following scripture as proof that man is unable to repent and believe in his fallen state. Gen 6:5, Mark 7:21-23, Eph 2:1,Col 2:13, Rom 3:10-11,Jer 13:23 What usually happens in any on-line discussion nothing is accomplished because so many side issue will be introduced that are not relevant to the debate. Then it becomes difficult to have any type of meaning-full discussion. I suggest the question (statement) remain: bigpaul: "The natural man under the conviction of the Holy Spirit is well able to repent and to believe, should he so choose" solascriptura: "a unregenerate person is able to repent and to believe" I will post my position concerning the scripture you have given as they related to the question (statement)and you do likewise. I hope this will be helpful and beneficial to all whom read this thread. Blessings to all, Len" The error in this post is: solascriptura: "a unregenerate person is able to repent and to believe" It should read: solascriptura: "a unregenerate person is unable to repent and to believe" Hopefully this has not caused anyone or confusion, LOL, Paul seems to know what side of the fence I am on. |
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solascriptura 27-Apr-09, 20:50 |
Red Herring by Paul bigpaul: "The natural man under the conviction of the Holy Spirit is well able to repent and to believe, should he so choose" solascriptura: "a unregenerate person is unable to repent and to believe" We see Paul introducing into our discussion Faith VS Works when the topic is concerning natural man’s ability to repent and believe. He brought James into the equation James 2:21-23. I found it quite remarkable that Paul immediately went to James and his passage which is the same one Martin Luther was challenged by the teaching Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Paul took issue with my statement “The WORKS of which Paul wrote were of course the 613 mitzvos , which are divided into 365 negative restrictions and 248 positive commands. So of course, faith does not fall into that category”. Notice I stated “So of course, FAITH DOES NOT FALL into that category. “ The category in which I was referring is works as meritorious towards salvation. Yes Apostle Paul did blast the Pharisees and Sanhedrin over their insistence in keeping the Law. The Law of course was the ritual circumcision, food rights and many other duties. I DID NOT say, this was the ONLY aspect of the law. He (Paul) of course was also speaking of any law where by a man would endeavor to attain salvation through works, be they the miszvos or any other law. Yes, “Abraham's WORKS were not the "mitzvos" this is true. He was deemed righteous by a sovereign act of God before any works were ever done. Hence we are sons of Abraham by Faith, I am not in any way contesting that point of view. What I do contest is that man is lost in his trespasses, dead in his sins, is unable to have this saving faith without an act of God. I am speaking of saving faith, faith that leads to salvation, not the dead faith decried by James in his book. In the Protestant community this is called Sola Fide, I have a sneaking suspicion that Paul and I agree on the subject of Sola Fide, that is Faith alone. The aspect of Sola Gratia, Grace Alone seems to be where we are part company when the question arises how we get this faith. Paul seems to consistently confuse the saving faith that the Christian has, the faith in which the Christian claims the free gift of salvation with dead faith, faith which is hallow and bears no fruit. There could be a possiblity that his notion of faith is the same, be it faith of the unredeemed sinner or redeemed Christian. I will address the point I made concerning Jesus statement about works and belief in Him soon. Right now, I want to bring the reader back on task of the point of this discussion, that being is man really dead in his sins. Is man able to reach out to God and attain the salvation which is being offered in his natural, unrepentant, state he is in prior to being born again? Again, I cite the following: Eph 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. Just as the leopard cannot change, so man in his natural state cannot do so either. Paul really means that there is no, not one. When one is dead in sins and trespasses, the lifting of the arm up is not possible. Dead really means dead. Only by intervention of the Holy Spirit and the change of nature can man then love Jesus. Then can he see the Lord and follow Him. Since Paul’s answer was long, I will end here and pick up the rest of his answer in the next post. Len |
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solascriptura 27-Apr-09, 20:54 |
Paul and his eisegesis of John it) individuals SEEKING for Jesus. Granted, their motives were not right as the passage points out, but here they were regardless, SEEKING out Jesus to hear what He had to say, and see what He could do. The unsaved do search out the Lord on occasion. They can and they do, both in the past and in the present Here we see a clear example of eisegesis. Paul has a preconceived idea that faith comes before a person is reborn. So he presses into the scripture as one squeezing an apple into a coke bottle so that scripture fits his idea. Paul claims the crowd was seeking to hear what Jesus would say. Jesus tells them they were seeking him not because they had seen miracles but they had eaten the loaves and were filled. The crowd was not seeking at all, as Paul suggests to hear what He would say or would do, but rather were looking for a free meal. Yet out of this passage Paul claims that lost sinners, reprobate unsaved man were seeking Jesus. Ya, for food, that is clear from what Jesus told them, not for salvation. So, at this point what I asserted that unregenerate men don’t seek Jesus, or at least not for redemption still stands. So far Paul has not proven the Reformed Baptist and Presbyterian preachers in the world wrong. Paul: Was Jesus giving us all a definition of FAITH here (as Len would teach us), contradicting other parts of the Scripture as it would be written in years to come with this statement? Certainly not! If Jesus is not instructing those in attendance that belief (faith) in Him is the only “work” they are to do, pray tell us, just what was Jesus saying? I agree with you Paul, you now agree with me. If faith is considered a work, it is the only work that is meritorious to salvation. You stated “"LABOUR simply to believe” “LABOUR” in this sense means work. My original statement which you took exception was: Since Jesus considers believing in Him work, faith in that sense is a work, not to confuse apple and oranges here. In fact it would be the only meritorious work when considering salvation. Not only is it a work, but it is a saving faith. Not to be confused with the dead faith decried by James in his book. It is an everlasting faith that is a "gift of God". Notice I stated “faith in that sense is a work, not to confuse apple and oranges here” So far Paul has not proven the Reformed Baptist and Presbyterian preachers in the world wrong. |
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