GameKnot: GameKnot related, Database Oddity

GameKnot related: Database Oddity

From

Message

lord_shiva
03-Jul-25, 07:27

Database Oddity

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. a3

At this point the World shows three games black wins playing Nf6 33% of the time.

Select Nf6 and white wins the majority of 271 games.

Another troubling aspect of the database is that you get down to a single game that black wins, but white can easily force mate in two moves. I assume time out, somehow?

markb56
05-Jul-25, 15:46

The GK move database is constructed using FEN positions with one or more links (i.e. moves) leading to the next FEN position (this is why you can get stuck in a loop where a series of moves links you back to the original FEN position, ad infinitum). Sometimes the number of links(moves) from one FEN to the next might be 33% of the time, but when you reach the next FEN position there are other links(moves) that arrive at the same new FEN position, and thus you might find there being another 271 links(moves) arriving at that position. I find using linked FEN positions a clever way to build a move database, but it can also be confusing in some cases.

And yes, the World games never indicate whether there was a timeout, so the winner of the game might have been losing. As Joe/PQL/TA will point out, there are much better databases to look at, and GK's are mostly a matter of convenience rather than perfection. Plus it's high-time the World database be updated with games more recent than 2000.

Regarding the GameKnot databases, these haven't been updated since Mike sold GK to the new owners in 2021 (updating the GK database was a manual process that Mike would do every few months as it would take many hours to generate and link all possible FEN positions from games played here at GK). Again, there are better databases available, but I always like seeing what the current/most popular move responses to a given position are being played here at GK. Since the GK player database hasn't been updated since June 2021, we're stuck looking at what's in the past and no longer in fashion (or maybe it remains in fashion since we don't see any new trends developing).

lord_shiva
05-Jul-25, 16:06

GK Bases

There are lots of obvious blunders the GK games. Not so much the world games. But it is disappointing to me timeouts obfuscate winning moves.

euro_pop_legend
08-Sep-25, 16:41

Deleted by euro_pop_legend on 08-Sep-25, 18:15.

euro_pop_legend
08-Sep-25, 17:31

Deleted by euro_pop_legend on 08-Sep-25, 18:15.

lord_shiva
08-Sep-25, 17:56

Opening Books

Here is the Hiarcs link again just in case the message above gets deleted:

www.hiarcs.com

resol_bojateg
20-Feb-26, 09:48

Lord-shiva
I no spend much time study to many open move.grandpa Pepe tell me learn en master 2-3 move an not “bog down” to much open chess theory waste of time unless magnus carlsen!sodium attack sodium favorite white open move.also love FRED open for fun!!!!

euro_pop_legend
20-Feb-26, 09:59

@LS

Thanks for that link again.I think I just posted that Hiarcs link in another recent thread and discussed Hiarcs many times in the GK forums and my old club.Its well worth the price,but you can get older versions for free.Its certainly much better than GK's opening book because Hiarcs is updated every 3 months.And no,its not a waste of time"(as I am sure you are aware of)and you do NOT have to be a Magnus Carlesen to learn and appreciate an excellent opening book.That is obvious to you and I,of course!

By the way,thanks again for your support with me regarding some issues on GK.

resol_bojateg
20-Feb-26, 10:04

here good link for some
www.newinchess.com

euro_pop_legend
20-Feb-26, 10:05

Many of my friends on GK and elewhere,even 1700-1800 rated have used Hiarcs with great success and learning.I never rely on "others"to make my chess learning limited and into to narrow pathways.I would not suggest those who are under 1700 to look into Hiarcs vast opening network,but keep it on the backburner for the future.Its content and format is amazing!

See you around LS,I hope and keep up the forum policing once in a while...if possible.

Best,
Joe

euro_pop_legend
20-Feb-26, 10:12

@ LS again...

That book that Resol posts has nothing to do with opening databases only a narrow view of black games and is not really pertinent to opening books in general.I could post a book on all white games,but again,that would have really zero or next to zero on the main theme of this thread which is opening databases.Even a 1700 rated would understand that.

Best,
TA

baddeeds
20-Feb-26, 17:59

@lord_shiva

I agree about timeouts. But, there are many reasons why someone would timeout. And, even with the postponement, I remember, once having to run over to the library in order to avoid timing out after Super Storm Sandy which, as you know, was a complete horror!

lord_shiva
20-Feb-26, 18:44

Timeouts

The complaint isn’t that people time out, but that openings are skewed. If there are ten games using an opening, but five are lost from TO, that opening will look much weaker than it really is. That isn’t restricted to the GK database. You might think black’s response is much weaker than it really is, but following the game down you see they were way ahead by material and position, but suddenly lost—presumably by clock.

I suppose it’s worth just following the game tree down to see what mistakes can be exploited and what potential pitfalls to avoid.

Still, I want to see a clock instead of a chessboard as the icon on GK games lost by TO, to quickly discern how recently and to what extent a player’s rating was impacted by this. It is also handy for winnowing these games—was the player ahead or behind? Leading TOs separated by completed games are indicative of rating manipulation.

I also want a few additional advanced search functions, particularly a Y/N/blank box for team members. Useful both for matches and recruiting. I’ve accidentally tried poaching members of other teams-though not recently.

resol_bojateg
20-Feb-26, 20:12

lord-shivva
i like play black most because white have statistic advantage win persentage.white win 56% of game!this first move big advantage.black have play defense!white have "up hand".when see player who play lot black game that mean balance an good chess player!alway white play chess not sign of strong player.player want win persentage advantage only!

resol_bojateg
20-Feb-26, 20:15

may be high as 10% advantage!!!!
www.reddit.com

« Back to forum