GameKnot: GameKnot related, PROLONGING OBVIOUSLY LOST MATCHES

GameKnot related: PROLONGING OBVIOUSLY LOST MATCHES - WHY???

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sema4x
07-Feb-10, 02:53

PROLONGING OBVIOUSLY LOST MATCHES - WHY???

I don't know if anyone else gets as annoyed with players still playing in obviously lost positions?? I mean 100% lost positions such as you have queen and a few pawns and opponent just has his king an maybe a completely trapped pawn the other side of the board?
I've had a few games recently where it's an unstoppable win in 6 or so moves, but the opponent drags the match out playing a move every 3 or 4 days...

This means an guaranteed win can actually take weeks due to the stubborn antics of other players.

I assume you may argue that they are looking for a draw, but seriously, how many % of such games end up drawn due to them sneaking into a 'can't move with getting into draw? I would bet not even 1%.

When I know I am in a 100% lost board, I resign immediately- rather than waste opponents time and waste my own. To have a few of these games on my list of current games would annoy me more than my opponent I would guess.

So what do folk think? Are these players being 'tenacious' or trying to simply trying to purposely stall and annoy other players?
Ok, rant over!thanks.

kingdawar
07-Feb-10, 03:29

Why

Because you have failed to find the shortest path to mate time after time again. Better take some more time for your moves and finish it off properly

F.A.Q. #26

gameknot.com

sema4x
07-Feb-10, 03:52

Heinzkat - totally incorrect

Firstly, if you read my post in any depth, which you patently didn't I mention games with mate guaranteed in a few moves. Even if it's 3 or 4 moves, a stubborn timewaster playing a move every 3 or 4 days could keep Gary Kasparov tied into the game for weeks.

Secondly, your response fails to explain why timewasters needlessly drag games on they know are lost. Instead, you ignore the central point of my initial message and concentrate on attacking myself and my play - which is absurd- I can assure you players of far higher rating than you or myself have endured the timewasters dragging out lost matches. Players of the calibre to 'take the shortest path to mate' as you rather aggressivel accused me of failing to do.

Thirdly, your sole response about something that infuriates many on this site is to ignore it completely...which implies you are either rather rude or that you yourself are one of the timewasters.

Fourthly- let's say your aggressive reversal of my question has any relevance (which it does not), it still leaves the question of why timewasters pointlessly drag on lost matches? Even if their opponent is not in Cyrano's league- or indeed Heinzkat (your critical manner suggests you must be a player of the very highest calibre, soon to dislodge Borisp maybe?) and does not 'find the quickest way to mate' surely it is even more absurd to have the game go on even longer? If one stalls and drags out a game against a genius player like heinzkat, for instance, then one will lose little time of one's own as a master like you always 'finds the quickest way to mate'- but to drag out a game against a player not in Kramnik, Anand or Heinzkat's league is to waste your time and your opponent's, surely?

sema4x
07-Feb-10, 03:58

FAQ 26

Also, faq 26 and players "..might have something planned that will change things around very soon, or they might simply be trying their best to come up with a solution"

Seeing as I mentioned player playing with king and hopelessly trapped pawn against king/queen/pawns - just what mystery plan can a solitary king pull off to win against king/queen.pawns???
I'm not in Heinzkatz league ,maybe, but to checkmate using just your king is something even he could not do???

kingdawar
07-Feb-10, 04:24

Hey don't be mad at me or your opponents for your own shortcomings dude

sema4x
07-Feb-10, 04:47

Again, heinzkat, the question was not about me or my 'shortcomings' - (if you'd bothered to read the original question). It was about why players endlessly drag on games they know are lost. So forget about me or my 'shortcomings' for a second - pretend I'm not a member of game knot, and take the question at face value:
why do some player needlessly drag on matches that are lost?

To say that they do it because other players 'are not good/quick enough to mate them before' is illogical and makes no sense at all. It still leaves the core question of why they do it and what they get out of it when they know they will lose?

If you believe that some players start slowing down and playing a move every 4 days when they know they face defeat in a few moves anyway, then why do they do it. Do you honestly suggest that they sit there and think to themselves "..I am purposefully wasting my time and his simply as he has not checkmated me earlier due to his shortcomings" if so, both you and they are pretty sad individuals.

The key question is about the obstructor's motives - why do they do it? Would they purposely do the same against a weak chess computer and smugly think "this computer's 'shortcomings' mean I can carry on an obviously lost position for as long as possible- I've really got one over on him".

The saddest thing is, looking at your opinions here, I am fairly sure that some people actually WOULD do this...Sad indeed.

polpoc
07-Feb-10, 05:05

Lost matches

I'm sorry, but you can't do anything. Chess is not like Baseball, no Mercy Rule. Sometimes I played with that kind of boring players, I understand. You can just find the best moves to win the game quickly. Use the conditional moves, it's not so hard to anticipate the moves in lost positions.

surfdude99
07-Feb-10, 05:13

unfortunetely

this is probably one of the downfalls of corr. chess; its to be expected, as annoying as it is, i think you have to learn to just play it out. But it all honestly it balances it out in the end, i have games where i have a slight advantage and they resign, or i have an overwhelming advantage and they drag it out tilll mate in 1 can't be avoided. I have forgotten how many times this has happened to me in OTB tournaments.....and it can be effective in making the player with the huge advantage become frustrated. It's all part and parcel of the game; they are within their right to do so. I mean its not over until the fat lady sings right.....oh and nobody ever won a game by resigning(i forgot who said that)

tactical_abyss
07-Feb-10, 06:13

Deleted by tactical_abyss on 07-Feb-10, 13:08.

tactical_abyss
07-Feb-10, 06:22

Deleted by tactical_abyss on 07-Feb-10, 13:08.

surfdude99
07-Feb-10, 07:25

jump started games in mated nets

i have come across the same situation as yourself also tactical_abyss, a player who wanted to restart a game from a lost position after timing out, it was pretty funny....

ganstaman
07-Feb-10, 07:59

So a player uses the amount of time agreed upon by both players before the game began, and then waits for the game to result in a checkmate, which is the actual purpose of the game based on its rules, and somehow the other guy gets mad.

If you don't like the time controls, don't play them. If you don't like chess games ending in checkmate, don't play chess.

And work on not being so angry. It's not healthy for you.

tactical_abyss
07-Feb-10, 08:04

Deleted by tactical_abyss on 07-Feb-10, 13:09.

sema4x
07-Feb-10, 08:36

GANSTAMAN

You missed most of the point 'ganstaman' - it's less that the timewasters use the allotted times-per-move rule, but that they continue playing when the situation is 110% lost with no hope of victory.
I'm basically trying to get into their mindset, what motivates them to do this, what they get of it....Me personally, and I believe most other players here, with the exception of you and Heinzkat and a few likeminded 'quirky' inidviduals would get no pleasure from continuing games we know 110% we will lose...

So I'm just trying to ask such guys and girls - what do you get out of it??
If I'm in such a position I know I've lost (all to often!) I'd rather resign and start a new game and spend my time and energy trying to win that, rather than wasting my time and energy on pointless games...That's the thing as well- you are wasting your OWN time more than anyone else's when you drag on as long as you can simply for the sake of...sake of what? I don't know, that's why I'm asking on this thread!!

The kind of people who will get pleasure out of dragging out, say, a king/queen/rook/bishop versus king/knight situation -where it is impossible to win- are showing alien characteristics to most of us on here. I mean, it's not like a relationship falling apart but you try to keep it alive as you love the person!! Why do you do it???

Let's get some of the timewaster on here to fight their cause and explain what their motives are!!! OOPS, STRIKE THAT, THE THREAD WOULD THEN MEANDER ON FOR YEARS AND YEARS AS THEY NEEDLESSLY CARRY IT ON!!!

surfdude99
07-Feb-10, 09:04

i do hear you sema4x....

some players aren't necessarily playing for a win.... they can be playing for a draw also; i mean even 3 Queens+king vs lone king can quite easily end in a draw, however unlikely it may seem. Some players want to see if you can actually win the game to checkmate, no matter how lost the position is.

tactical_abyss
07-Feb-10, 09:35

Deleted by tactical_abyss on 07-Feb-10, 13:09.

tactical_abyss
07-Feb-10, 09:51

Deleted by tactical_abyss on 07-Feb-10, 13:09.

myrydin
07-Feb-10, 10:01

I think the ability to shut down "won" games as quickly as possible (with the least moves) is a skill worth developing. I'm happy if I get the practice.

surfdude99
07-Feb-10, 10:29

myrydin i would have to agree....

it can be refreshing to play it out to mate, just to make sure you havent lost it, especially when you go through a run of matches where every game is resigned prior to mate....

tactical_abyss
07-Feb-10, 10:53

Deleted by tactical_abyss on 07-Feb-10, 13:09.

surfdude99
07-Feb-10, 11:27

beautiful mate....

even Paul Keres allowed Fischer to play it out to mate, as he found the final position aesthetically pleasing iirc.... on another note Kramnik is known to have missed a mate in one. So if the best in the world can play it out till checkmate, or even miss a checkmate; im sure its ok for us to do so also. (I really dont know why I am justifying checkmate considering it's the idea of chess right)lol...

untateve
07-Feb-10, 12:33

In reply to sema--

If you read my profile, you will see this:

"In addition, I have been provided some mentored guidance in which I plan to adhere:

"You learn most from a hopeless game when you keep playing and try to figure out the best moves, checkmates,positional moves and more. Then your insight grows and your skill grows. And at some point you will notice that your former hopeless games are far from lost when you look at them again. In the end, the difference will be that you do not have to think about the solutions you will just know the solutions. So giving up such a game is a waste because it is the best learning experience. Ten hours of hopeless game time is worth 1000 hours of winning game time."

So if you decide to play me, expect to play to the bitter end. "
----------------------------------------------------------------------

That advice was given to me by a 2200+ player who was urging me to play on in "hopeless" situations. Now I don't play every game to mate, but I most definitely play on in lost positions, constantly trying to find the best move.

bevo_xv
07-Feb-10, 12:35

WHY????

If we can set aside the vitriol for a second, I think I can answer sema4x's original question which was "Why?" While I don't condone this behavior, I can possibly help you understand some motives that may be behind such conduct.
1. Let's assume player A is rated 1499 and wants to join a mini tournament with a 1500 rating minimum. He has a game that he will win in 3 moves that will net him +4 points and he can join the tournament. If he resigns the game with you, he loses -8 points. So Player A stalls the loss with you as long as possible until he gets the win and the 4 points. He then joins the mini tournament and then resigns the game with you.
2. Player A is again rated 1499 and his lifetime high rating is 1501. Again, he has a game that he will win in 3 moves that will net him +4 points. In addition to the lost game with you, he has several other losses that are going to lower his rating. He wants to bump his lifetime high rating up to 1503 before taking the losses and lowering his rating to, say, 1460.
3. Same case as 1 and 2, but this time he wants to extend his longest winning streak or break his losing streak before taking the loss to you.
I'm sure there are other similar reasons I am not thinking of at the moment. Or Player A could do it because he can or because he knows it upsets you. If you don't already have a mating net (i.e. forced mate in X moves), use the opportunity to search for and execute the shortest path to mate. If you already have a mating net, relish the victory and watch him squirm.

lighttotheright
07-Feb-10, 14:04

sema4x - you posed a interesting question. But...

Dude! ...no need to get angry. We are trying to give you some good viable reasons for continued play in extreme lost positions. Lashing out at Master level players because you don't like their answers is simply not cool.

Some people have given some very good reasons for playing on in such positions.

My two cents worth: Check your rating and compare it with others before...(fill in the blank).

I've won plenty of games or forced a draw in obviously lost positions. It happens. My primary motivation for continuing is perceived rating difference. If there is even the smallest chance that I might gain something, even if just a lesson, I will continue. I wouldn't expect anything less from my opponent.

chessnovice
07-Feb-10, 19:05

It's not that big a deal to me. If the game truly is 100% over, just use the conditional moves to the end and let your opponent decide when the game is done. Why sweat the small stuff?

sema4x
08-Feb-10, 14:32

hmmm

well, I can see guys trying to avoid another loss affecting their winning streak or trying to avoid pronounced losing streak, or trying to maintain/improve rating, but most times I've encountered these players none of these factors have been there...
I see a lot of you criticise me personally for my 'low rating' daring to debate high rating players?? Well, I guess if a high rating player told you to put your hand in the fire, as per the childhood maxim, you probably would, but I think for myself, independently, and have an iq above 80, so I see your point but disagree with your subservient logic..
The fact remains, I still fail to see what pleasure folk get, who aren't looking for achieving grades to enter tournaments etc, but still get kicks from dead games get...
The scary thing to me is the amount of people who get these peculiar kicks and the number of people who will support them on this forum... Well, maybe some people have emptier lives than most but more power to you...

I guess you're the same folk who will be in a rush to get home but will suddenly drive extremely slowly if a learner driver is behind you, and you get pleasure out of slowing him down as he won't have skills or need to overtake...despite the fact you will be hurting yourself more...my opinion is that you're sad, but then you may think my hobbies of worldwide travel, thai boxing and studying history are lame as well, it's all subjective...

we all need hobbies! just glad mine are not as bizarre and pathetic as yours!!

sema4x
08-Feb-10, 14:45

a funny thing..

People of high rating seem to be condescending and question my right, as a low rating player, to dare to question the timewasters.....Funny ,the best players in the world, more often than not, resign several moves, sometimes 15-20 moves or more before mate can be achieved simply as they are NOT timewasters. In fact, to see checkmate physically performed is actually extremely rare in professional chess- as most games are resigned well in advance...

So, the top players do not feel the need or get the peculiar pleasure many do of prolonging dead games- and surely grandmasters would have the most ability to prolong dead games??
Also, people attack my low rating and denigrate me for 'daring' to critique timewasters, but these timewasters are people even I, with my low rank, defeat, and thus of the lowest of low rankings...?

lighttotheright
08-Feb-10, 16:02

Before you start calling people time wasters, why not look through their game history and see exactly what kind of lost games they tend to resign?

You might be surprised and may be a little embarrassed for verbally attacking them.

uri65
08-Feb-10, 23:31

In reply to sema

sema4x , you asked why they don't resign and you were given number of possible reasons:
1. Rating considerations.
2. Training (excellent point made by untateve, I should take it as an advice too)
3. Hoping for error on you side (blunder, stalemate, missing time control). Chances are even higher if they know that you are getting nervous…

All those are valid reasons. I don't see why you still think that your question was not answered.
As for waste of time – if your opponent keeps playing he surely doesn't think he is wasting his time. As for your time – why should he care, I wouldn't.
Try to look at it positively, consider it as training. And besides I don't see how much of your time it can waste – couple of minutes for each move with all the double-checking for blunders/stalemate etc? What's all the fuss about?

easy19
08-Feb-10, 23:47

Lol

this question /complaint keeps popping up on the forums

And if you like blunt answers to the question.
Here are a Few reasons

- A lot of players are sore losers and they postpone there loss by staling the game a bit..
-i am winning in 3 other games and can reach a new rating record so the lost game gets no attention no more no more
- I lose but you have to pay for it with waiting a long long time hahaha
- I hate you so now you wait you #$%^@#%@
- annoying people is more fun than playing chess and i get lots of attention in threads like these Muhahahaha

ps: i also slow done slightly wen i am about to lose a game but i have some other reasons for that...
.

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