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 Suggested Feature: take back button for unrated games |
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bigpeta 31-May-14, 01:53 |
it has been done dont know how much prog work is involved but i like the idea |
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caveman1960 31-May-14, 01:55 |
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a flawed suggestion, won't even call it an "idea" But winning a serious game of chess is not about finding the best next move -- it is about finding the best plan, the best target-sequencing, the best sequence of moves. Putting in a take-back button won't help take back a flawed plan, just reverse an individual move in a flawed plan. By legitimizing shoddy thinking and moves made by reflex and not based on thought, such a feature would hardly encourage a player's progress in improving his or her strength. By contrast, a feature that in my own chess progress would be of help would be to allow players to switch sides during the unrated, "practice" game they are playing. If you live with the consequences of your mistakes, that's when you begin to get better. |
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bigpeta 31-May-14, 07:14 |
so wrong if you were a driving instructor would you simply allow your learner to crash and say thats what you get or would you use dual controls to prevent the crash and let them continue having learnt the lesson. |
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teaching conceptual chess insights As a teacher of tactical chess, you may be correct. But as an instructor of strategic chess, I see the suggestion as pointless. As a side note, you might enjoy the book "The Chess Mind" by your countryman Gerald Abrahams. |
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bigpeta 31-May-14, 07:35 |
@shamash and yes i do rely on tactics to teach the lower ranks. based on de la mazas book which you so discourteously ravaged in a recent forum post. based on that teaching i have taken 4 players stuck on 1400, looking to give up chess because of lack of progress with standard teaching ideas. over the course of 1 year they made 2000+ A small number i will grant you but that is the area in which i work because you and your ilk will not teach the person instead of the material. As i see it some sites now benefit from 4 extra premium memberships that would have lost and 4 people now enjoy this wonderful game. |
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Pete --? <<"you and your ilk will not teach the person instead of the material">> |
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bigpeta 31-May-14, 09:48 |
shamash Now if you want to be an OTB GM then i agree your way is the best, However if you only wish to play a competent game online then there is no need for all that theory (use DBases) which takes a great load of time to learn which some folks dont wish to put in. How many players have given up in despair because they are told this is the only way to learn? I know that with my method of teaching I have saved many from giving up this wonderful game. |
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Know they Student in the spirit of the teaching of Hippocrates from 2500 years ago: <<"It is more important to know what sort of person has a disease than to know what sort of disease a person has.">> |
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tipsyjourneyman 01-Jun-14, 08:21 |
@big peta However as a teacher, I agree that diversity of methods is essential in teaching, I see why, as a chess teacher, you would argue for one more tool in the box. I also agree that tactics must come first before strategy, you don't teach a grunt in basic training how to conduct a theatre of operations, you begin with how to get into a good firing position without yourself getting shot! But the problem is, great, with you working as a chess teacher and using unrated games in a prescribed fashion with a select list of players playing the part of student, a take-back feature, used by yourself or others with same intent, could have some merit. In general, however, we can only learn from our chess mistakes if we experience the consequences of them and even playing in a bad position can be educational. The take-back option on unrated games would diminish not just the educational impact of our mistakes, but also unrated games themselves. Players would begin treating the games as "less important" when they should be assigning equal importance to all games they play if they wish to improve. Like I said previously, in your situation the idea of learning from mistakes by dealing with their consequences can be challenged: you may be playing a game against a student specifically to, for example, improve your student's ability at moving the knight. This game would not have much purpose if your student blundered and lost both knights in 5 moves! There'd be more pedagogical merit in restoring the blunders than playing to the end in that scenario. But, like I said previously, your situation is a very special case. My concern is for the general case. I suppose this could all be undone if you pointed out that we are all consenting (mostly) adults here and that our ability to use or not use the feature is up to us. But being a teacher, and surely, if you've spent time albeit specifically as a chess teacher you too, Peter, must have encountered this in your students, once a "soft" option presents itself just about EVERYONE will tend towards taking it. The special usage of the option is discarded and it becomes the norm. You may say that my students are teenagers but I see (sadly) much of their behaviour mimicked in adults. I would think that this take-back feature would be no exception, it would encourage, despite your own noble plans for such a feature, ultimately, mediocrity not mastery. On this therefore I must ultimately side with shamash (though I acknowledge the validity of many of your arguments). Oh by the by, I still remember being destroyed by you with the English. There wasn't any pedagogy there! Just a smack down! Maybe one day I might come your way for some proper chess tuition. (Though actually I would be lying...and a hypocrite, if I didn't admit I learned something from it! ) TJ Out. |
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tipsyjourneyman 01-Jun-14, 08:28 |
Final Note TJ (again) Out. |
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tipsyjourneyman 01-Jun-14, 08:31 |
Final, final note TJ (I mean it this time ) Out. |
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rmannstaedt 01-Jun-14, 13:41 |
Alternative suggestion However, I also very much agree with bigpeta that such an option would be invaluable when teaching others. I believe a workable solution would be the ability to start a game in any, given position. Including an option, when reviewing a game, to start a new game in that position, either as an open challenge or as a challenge sent to another member. Such games would automatically be unrated, of course, and it may be a good idea to simply ignore them as regards the player's win/loss/draw stats. This would have the following, interesting effect: games played with other players/students would be won/lost as normal and entered into the player statistics. Follow-up games started from a position in the lost game, would _not_ be entered into the player statistics however, and would not count, for instance, towards the various "number-of-games-played/won" stats, which would aid in creating a feeling that such games were not actually "real" games as such. But - they would still be great for teaching and instructing. As an aside, speaking of teaching aids: I have long wished for a better annotate feature than then one we have. The idea of static (fen specified) boards is extremely limiting. I would much rather have a feature where you walked through the game and comments and variations appeared, much like what happens when you ask GK to analyze a played game. I find it extremely irritating that I have to follow variations in my head rather than on-screeen. But that's a subject for another thread... PS: no tipsy, MIB did not invent that quote. It is an old, somewhat crude sociological generalization: the intelligence of any gathering is inversely proportional to its size... |
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Ruben's place to annotate: |
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to take back or not to take back games only. jc and I have a long history of exploring openings in unrated games, and it doesn't help us explore and learn when one of us (usually me) makes a blunder to lose. I've learned from both the strategic and tactical points of view here. As a life-long teacher as well as student I'm very aware of the tone of speakers and discussions, and think that's an important part of the interchanges on this thread. And as an aside, my whole idea of chess was transformed way back in 1960 when I read "The Chess Mind." Thanks for reminding me about it, shamash. |
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Suggested Feature: take back button for unrated games |
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tipsyjourneyman 02-Jun-14, 22:34 |
Alternate suggestions But even if you want a take-back option, I think it would be hard to argue that ALSO having Ruben's option would be bad for chess. Another possibility is that the take-back option becomes another "check box" in issuing a challenge. For instance now, if I issue a challenge I can tick "unrated". If we add "move take-back" as another checkbox, which only appears after ticking "unrated" as opposed to the option appearing by default in all unrated games, those amongst us who do not want take-backs even in unrated games, or to play against any opponent who would wish that option, still have our unadulterated unrated games. Those that do wish to play under take-back conditions can do so also. Everybody wins! One could even set up "challenge allows take-backs" in their auto-challenge decline rules so they are not pestered by players wanting to play take-back games. Finally, the annotation feature of GK certainly needs improvement. I've never annotated a game (except to prove, with humour, a point against Ruben last year ) because I consider it completely unwieldy. That in itself probably calls for a new thread, as does Ruben's ability to issue challenges from the board analyser. (Well by that I mean Ruben's idea of the ability to issue challenges from board analyser, not that we campaign just for Ruben to have this ability! ) Speaking of the board analyser, the inability to switch to the game's database when analysing games other than one's own is ridiculous! This also needs adjustment. Perhaps we can assemble a package of improvements for GK and submit it to the GK gurus? TJ Out. |
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bigpeta 03-Jun-14, 03:38 |
@rmannstaedt @tipsyjourneyman tipsy - i had to look up pedagogical in a dictionary but it is good to see that given the correct circumstances you agree with me. You raise the point of players getting lazy and overusing a take back feature. Perhaps a work around would be for it to be available only to tutors who register as such with GK. This would have a spin off that gave students looking for a suitably matched tutor a place to select one to approach. ps when i play rated games it is to win if you want a teaching game then any time will suit me fine. |
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I support johnclark's suggestion. |
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I’m good with rmannstaedt’s suggestion of a feature that allows an unrated game to start in any position and to also be posted as an open challenge, much the same as thematic mini tournaments. It resolves the issue of getting (or returning) to desired positions and thus allowing players to explore different lines without having to replay the game in a more complete context than what a take back button would allow. Tipsyjourneyman makes a good point that although the feature would be available only for unrated games, such games should not be counted in players’ stats. And I think shamash’s idea of allowing players to switch sides during a game is a good one, as tipsy calls it a “flip board option”. I haven’t submitted a suggestion for a new feature/enhancement before, but I assume that it would be done via the “GameKnot's customer support” link. If anyone knows another way, let me know. I will make reference to this thread for favorable responses to the concept and for the specific suggestions that have been made. I realize it’s a long shot, but as my mother would say, “If you don’t knock on the door, no one is going to open it.” Thanks again and I’ll post GK’s response, if I get one. jc |
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It's been 9 months |
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9 months?? @kneilca: No, I didn't. An opportunity presented itself where I'm now developing a web site to meet the features I want, including take backs, creating/uploading positions, switching colors and uploading any .pgn file for playing through or trying out alternate lines. I had hoped to get it up and running last month, but.... Well, hopefully in April. I think it will also prove helpful for instruction, e.g., school chess clubs, individual coaching/mentoring and self improvement. I'm jazzed about it. Will let you know when I roll it out. jc |
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@JC |
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@JC |
