GameKnot: Chess related, Harmonisation of FIDE/USCF laws

Chess related: Harmonisation of FIDE/USCF laws

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potus
13-Jun-12, 08:35

Harmonisation of FIDE/USCF laws

www.englishchess.org.uk

shamash
13-Jun-12, 10:39

false. . .

This states:

<<"The FIDE Laws are followed everywhere but in the US.
The differences between the FIDE Laws of Chess and the USCF Rules include:
US allows touching the rook first when castling. . . " >>

NOT in any US Tournament that I have played in. . .

potus
13-Jun-12, 11:36

News to me too, but 29. Castling. When castling, it is proper to touch the king first. There is no penalty for touching the rook first. However, if castling is illegal, you will have to make another legal move with whichever piece you touched first.

shamash
13-Jun-12, 11:48

not in my USCF Tournament. . .

. . . in New York City where I moved the King's Rook first and then the King,
and the Tournament Director upheld
my opponent's insisting it be a move by the King's Rook,
and not a castling move.

rockall
13-Jun-12, 13:30

USCF rule book

I am looking at the 4th edition of the current USCF rule book. The current edition is the 5th, but I doubt this rule
has changed. The fourth edition requires the King to be moved first when castling.

"8A2. Castling. Castling is a move of the king and either rook, counting as a singe move and executed as follows:
the king is transfered from its original square two squares toward either rook on the same rank; then that rook is
transferred over the king to the square adjacent to the king on the same rank."

Notice the word "then" after the semicolon.

I think "then" word together with 10B- the first touched piece moves rule, answers the issue.

If you touch the rook first, you must move it first. If you move the rook first then you can't castle because the
king must be the first piece moved when castling.

Other portions of rule 8A impose other familiar restrictions. on castling. In brief-- no prior moves of pieces, king
can't be under attack, king can't move over or to a square under attack, no pieces between king and rook.

shamash
13-Jun-12, 14:02

the castling update in the rule book. . .

. . . added the words "on the same rank,"
because before then (and yes this did come up excessively rarely)
a pawn on the d-file promoted to a rook could be used in a castling move
made with the unmoved king and the new rook along the un-attacked squares of the d-file itself.

potus
13-Jun-12, 14:09

main.uschess.org

Have a look at point 10 under important differences -that suggests that you can touch the rook first under US laws

rockall
14-Jun-12, 08:36

potus

Point 10 certainly does imply that; and yet the implication seems inconsistent with the text of the rules.

This apparent contradiction may provide the impetus for me to buy a set of the current rules, since that seems to be
the only way to obtain them. Unlike FIDE, the USCF does not publish its official rules online. They sell a book instead.

potus
14-Jun-12, 10:22

Rockall

I would wait until they have unified the rules in a few months - then get a free FIDE copy

rockall
14-Jun-12, 17:40

potus

<chuckle> Thanks for the suggestion. I will probably follow it. For me the question is really more a matter of
curiosity than anything else, since I have always castled King first. I think my cousin taught the game to me that
way about 55 years ago and the idea stuck.

rockall
14-Jun-12, 17:46

GK follows FIDE

For what its worth, I just checked to be sure. On GK you must move the king first. Castling will not work if you try
to move the rook first. Moving the king first is so natural that I had never tried to castle moving the rook first.

blake78613
15-Jun-12, 09:22

It has been a few years since I played in a USCF tournament, but as I remember the TD had quite a bit of discretion and moving your rook first would usually result in a warning the first time. It does make sense to me that USCF rules would be more lenient than FIDE, since the players are on the average less experienced in formal chess.

potus
15-Jun-12, 11:12

It looks like there may be a degree of discretion allowed in the US - if the player is clearly castling, then it looks like it might be ok to move the rook first, although I wouldn't recommend it. If the player looks like has played Rf1, then decided to castle, that probably wouldn't be ok. Maybe the TD would be more lenient on a junior playing in a minor that on a player playing in the open?

shamash
15-Jun-12, 11:34

re US TD lenient on junior clearly intending to castle

. . . not in my experience, No.

potus
16-Jun-12, 02:39

This is the 4th source I've found that states that it is permissible to touch the rook first when castling under USCF laws - looks like you got a bad decision Shamash

Tournament rules : Under the strict touch-move rules enforced in most tournaments, castling is considered a king move. But under current US Chess Federation rules, a player who intends to castle and touches the rook first would suffer no penalty, and would be permitted to perform castling, provided castling is legal in the position. Still, the correct way to castle is to first move the king.

rockall
16-Jun-12, 08:26

rule text

I am still curious about this, and I would like to see the actual text of the rules. Does anyone have a current edition
of USCF rules? It's the 5th edition of the book.

My copy of rule book (4th edition) is out of date, and I am not going to buy the 5th because it is due to be replaced
relatively soon.

But another solution is in the offing. Though my nearest local public library does not have a current edition, the
regional interlibrary loan system is coming to my aid, and a copy of the 5th edition is on the way to me. So I will
have the text within a week.

baronderkilt
17-Jun-12, 04:26

I don't own a current USCF Rulebook ...

IN fact mine is from the 80's. So it's possible this info to follow may have changed. But I doubt it.

To say the 80's TD has some discretion would have been a massive understatement. Ill illustrate with an example:

"Tournament Rules Announcement: Section so and so of USCF rulebook is amended for this event in that pawns may be promoted only to become Knights or Bishops, and may not be promoted to a Queen, King, nor Rook."

To enforce this Rule, I need only post it in writing before Round 1, Unless it was an event advertised in Chess Life, then it could also be required that I mention in the advert there, that there would be a rules change.

Little did you realize, the second most powerful man in the USA, is your Chess Director! lol.

baronderkilt
17-Jun-12, 04:47

PS//

I believe my 80's Rulebook (It was lost after i had basement flood ... so I cannot look to verify) may have been the first to address the matter of o-o and recommended K first, and requiring a King move be made if they were touched simultaneously, as in the two handed o-o. If memory is correct.

I think the handling Blake mentions would have been the way I would have called it also, if there was an actual complaint made about it. And I might go so far then as posting a rules clarification before the next round, as to how it would be interpretted.

rockall
20-Jun-12, 13:51

USCF- 5th edition

The 5th edition arrived today. It is essentially the same as the 4th, but with a helpful cross reference to rule 10 I 2
which clears up the ambiguity. Potus was referring to a source dealing with "touching" the rook. I was referring to a
rule about "moving" the rook.

Rule 10 is "The touched piece"
subsection 10 I 2 provides"
"If a player intending to castle touches the rook first, there is no penalty except if castling is illegal, the player must
move the rook if legal."

Apparently this is the rare case where "touching" is not "moving." So I would conclude that a player intending to
castle can touch the rook first, if he then moves the king two squares before moving the rook or simultaneously with
moving the rook. This was in the 4th edition too. I just failed to see it.

How do we know if the player is "intending to castle" ? Good question.

I intend to continue to avoid ambiguity by touching and moving the king first when I castle.

potus
20-Jun-12, 14:18

Rockall

Thanks for going to all that trouble - I am glad we now have an answer.

How do we know if the player is "intending to castle" ? Good question.

Well the USCF laws allow players to write the move down first, unlike FIDE, so if you have written down o-o as your move, that would satisfy the TD

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