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hennybogan1953 15-Mar-13, 14:48 |
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tat3225 15-Mar-13, 16:35 |
zorroloco The statement that Korean, mandarin, french and spanish and Arabic all represent the same thing.....which is to say that they are nothing more than languages other than English, seems really shallow to me. It actually seems like the exact opposite of what people in high school should be learning. Lumping them all together in a superficial way that doesnt teach anything about the countries that these languages are spoken in or the cultures they represent doesn't celebrate actual diversity it all. It's like saying that a room with ten people who all are of a different "race" is diverse. For all you know, everyone in the room shares hobbies and interests and work in similar professions. Making diversity nothing more than racial stereotyping. Anyway like I said, reciting the pledge of allegiance in Arabic DOES carry greater meaning than simply sounding different. It doesn't matter whether or not you want to pretend that this meaning isn't there, or excuse the cluelessness of the students involved. The meaning and reality is there. Saying the pledge of allegiance in English demostrates that someone appreciates the United States. Saying it in Arabic, a language for which there is no translation for the western concept of justice, is like a slap in the face. It's also something that I would avoid doing out of consideration for people who may have lost people in the terrorist attacks on 9/11. We're talking about Arab muslim culture and language here. Like it or not, it's the face of terrorism. If Arabic speaking muslims don't like it, then perhaps they should stop enabling and harboring and creating terrorists. |
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tat3225 15-Mar-13, 16:41 |
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tat ... |
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tat3225 15-Mar-13, 19:44 |
How can you possibly criticize me for fearing and condemning Arab culture and society? Of course I fear this organized and wealthy violent and unacceptable oppression of women! 90% of Saudi women look like afghan women wearing burkas! Totally covered. No face, no name, no human identity. It must be really easy for you as men to criticize me for fearing and being totally intolerant of Islamic society, and I'm guessing its representative of a lack of understanding and respect for the legitimate gender issues in Islam. Furthermore, it is insulting for you to insist repeatedly that Arabic is- according to your western armchair declaration- not at all representative of Islam and shouldn't be connected to Arab society. Just because you decide this doesn't mean it's true. Another important thing to know is that Muslim women oppress themselves simply by being Muslim and terrified. This is happening right now in Saudi Arabia with a large portion of the female population that is terrified to change in response to pressure from more outspoken and daring women. But these women are oppressed. It's horrible and its like organized oppression where they think its okay and they think its normal to be treated like nothing and forced to beg. Educated Saudi women aren't allowed to work because they can't drive and can't afford to hire a driver. Did you know they just got ID cards? Like a few months ago. Previously only their husbands or fathers could vouch for their existence and their identity. They depend totally on their husbands who can divorce them whenever. Forcing them to beg in front of one of the princes so they don't end up on the street while he mumbles "uh huh god willing....god willing" and fans these women away. And I'm supposed to NOT fear Arab culture and be tolerant? I'm even supposed to be tolerant of American Arabs who wear hijab electively but don't have to obey any Islamic law? Meanwhile they are perpetuating the false notion that Islam looks like THAT. So people think that women elsewhere have the same life? Please. Women constitute 5% of the Saudi work force despite being 50% of university graduates. Sometimes it's women who oppose change because they fear their god and they fear the consequences of going to far. It's why most of them are dressed entirely in black, not even with their eyes visible. They even wear black gloves. It's because they are scared! It is Islam that is the problem. It is the beliefs and the harsh punishment which Saudi royals will defend without apology as being a core component of Islam. So OF COURSE I fear Arab culture. It sucks to be a woman in Arab culture. And yes I dislike the language. Which again, for anyone familiar with Islam and strict Sunni interpretation, is CENTRAL to all of Islam and Arab Islamic societies because of the direct connection with the text. It is the language of the prophet. Just because some non Muslim white American men say otherwise doesn't mean anything at all. You're just like Saudi men who brush off women's concerns and dismiss them. Meanwhile these things are real. Quite honestly I think it's crazy that you guys are shocked at my opposition and fear which includes intolerance of Arab society and legitimate dislike of the Arabic language. That's allowed. Why you think it's illogical for me to feel this way is completely ridiculous. Of course you don't care as much as I do! You're men! You also must understand that to Wahhabis, like Saudi Arabians, Muslims in the United States are not Muslim at all. It's nothing to them and Muslims here who call themselves Muslims are heretics and not living according to the prophet. Just because you might know someone here who says they are Muslim means nothing. That's not what Islam looks like in the Arab world. |
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tat3225 15-Mar-13, 20:32 |
If Arabic is an American language to you with no meaning that has anything to do with Islam or oppression or actual life in Arabic speaking countries then good for you. It's not like tons of other Americans do not also preach blind tolerance without exception. |
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tat ... I'm sorry you apparently dismiss this point. |
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tat3225 15-Mar-13, 21:54 |
Of course women in the Arab world weren't part of this discussion until I brought it up. You guys don't care. First I was blasted for my accusations then what I said was denied, repeat and repeat. If its not being denied I'm being told its irrelevant and off topic. Yet no one here has defined what IS relevant and none off you have demonstrated any understanding for what the Arabic language is and what it means. While simultaneously trying to have a discussion about it. I was asked to explain why I dislike Arabic and I did. Then I was called a liar, told I was wrong, told that women's issues in arab cultures aren't important, even though speaking arabic over a school loudspeaker is supposed to bring cultural awareness of some kind. It doesn't matter what I say, my dislike for Arabic is not acceptable for you while simultaneously my reasoning for it is unrelated, according to you and others. If you want to talk about totally meaningless nonsense like high schoolers finding novelty in languages that don't sound like English then go ahead. Meanwhile all of these other things are taking center stage that have everything to do with women. But all you guys want to do is smother women in the Islamic world. I would have thought that people who claim to be compassionate and caring would have thought that perhaps this is a good opportunity, or that saying the pledge of allegiance in Arabic is a good opportunity to teach students, about the unacceptable status of women in the Islamic world. But no. There has been denial and efforts to shut me up. I am a bigot because I call out Islam for what it actually is. I have no doubt that someone will respond to this by saying "no one was denying the importance of women's issues. But that's not what this conversation is about." Right. If Islam was peaceful and treated people well, Islamic countries would not be human rights hell holes that import expat western engineers. The United States would not have an Arabic speaking population because most of these Arabs would still be in Arab countries. Women's issues in the Islamic world are, at least to me, far more important than a bunch of brats in Colorado who think its cool and progressive to say the pledge of allegiance in different languages. |
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tat ... This thread is about the use of the Arabic language in the U.S. |
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tat3225 16-Mar-13, 12:24 |
chaz I also thought that people argued with my answers and opinions and otherwise also participated in a discussion about women. I also fail to see how arab culture can possibly be separated from how women are treated in the arab world. It is shocking that you think it's possible to do that and it's shocking that you celebrate and condone the arab community in the United States to be so silent about women in Islamic countries. They hardly do anything at all. They want to celebrate Arab culture. You guys oppose any kind of military intervention in islamic countries while simultaneously celebrating arab culture here in the United States. If this was the 1940's, you'd oppose military intervention in Germany while simultaneously celebrating german immigrants in the United States and German culture. Which would have allowed for the anti-semites in power to remain in power. Do you think that the jewish community would let Americans celebrate german culture while jews in germany were forced to wear all black and be faceless, have no rights under the law and otherwise be treated like women in most islamic countries especially Saudi Arabia and Iraq and Afghanistan (pre-US invasion in both iraq and afghanistan)?? You guys realize that this will happen in Israel (or worse) if the US wasn't supporting Israeli military efforts?? But the US IS helping Israel so it won't happen. Meanwhile Americans aren't supporting the SAME military involvement in places that treat women this way. But you know what? Go ahead and discuss the use of the arabic language in the United States. Discuss away............ |
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tat3225 16-Mar-13, 13:04 |
zorroloco You brought up the treatment of jews in germany.........Did the United States give anti-semites in Germany a voice after the war? Did we give nazi's the freedom to continue being Nazi's? Hell no. Did American public schools celebrate German culture and say the Pledge of Allegiance in German? NO. Because at that time for all intents and purposes Germans were anti-semitic Nazi's. That's what their national identity was and it remained that way until they proved otherwise. I'm holding the arab world to the very same standards. Which works, by the way. The only reason why Saudi Arabia has changed at all in the past ten years is because of pressure from westerners who speak up about things, like me. Your way, back in the 1940's, would have protested against a war in Europe while simultaneously celebrating the positive aspects of nazi culture in the United States. |
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I have male and female friends who are Muslim and they are warm and caring folks with no hint of misogyny. Many Arabic countries ARE primitive in their cultural mores and political mores. It would be possible in part to point the bone at US foreign policy for keeping things that way. Perhaps they have been cursed by the geological accident of having oil that the West has desired. Brutality and misogyny have been expressed in many cultures and IMHO are often justified by the extremists within many monotheist religions. |
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tat3225 16-Mar-13, 14:17 |
Indonesia is about 99% Sunni muslim. Previously, Indonesians had no control over their government at all. They could not vote, didn't have a voice, and so on. There was no Sharia or Islamic law involved in their legal system at all. Which was a problem for Sunni Muslims, because Sunni muslims believe in the Sharia. After lots of pressure, Indonesians are now allowed to vote and have a voice in their government and legal system. As a result, there is a special Islamic Law legal system in Indonesia now, based on the Sharia and modeled after Saudi Arabia. The Indonesian legal system, the one that was there previously, can't intervene with the Islamic legal system even if Islamic law violates Indonesian law. The population supports this because they are Sunni muslim and hold the majority. Since this has happened, things have become increasingly based on Islam and human rights violations have skyrocketed. Women in Indonesia are definitely oppressed btw. It's impossible to have Sharia law without violence and oppression. That is what Sharia Law is. Unless you support the Sharia, in which case you wouldn't think that women living under the sharia are oppressed. |
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tat actually, we invited their scientists to the USA, gave them citizenship, and incorporated them into the us, protecting them from prosecution for war crimes. we rebuilt their country and made them allies. |
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There's a good overview of Islam history and present in Indo here . en.wikipedia.org. From my own experience , in Bali and Java there is a lived ideology of " many religions one god" amongst the great majority of folk......... Perhaps much like the US. |
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tat3225 16-Mar-13, 16:22 |
Anyway, you cannot tell me that things I have seen with my own eyes are not real. I have also read a mountain of Islamic text from a variety of eras, among other things. I am well educated on this subject. I don't just read Wikipedia or talk to American muslims and assume I know enough to form such strong opinions. |
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tat3225 16-Mar-13, 16:48 |
www.economist.com www.bangkokpost.com m.theaustralian.com.au www.thejakartaglobe.com m.smh.com.au abna.ir |
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tat ... |
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