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jaymar 06-Dec-06, 11:39 |
 Leo..In fact the universe is heading towards absolute zero and a dead universe. All the observations available to us predict this. There is no hallowed light at the end of this universe. Kaku has already predicted that if mankind is to survive then we need to find ways to leave this ultimately dying universe and cross into a parallel universe. The possibility of multiverses is our only hope. However to return to the main point. jdh you are still being cute. There is nothing magical about the science that we have or will have. Your exact words were " It is not, but Hakwing that is engaging in fanciful, magical, and wishful thinking here. If you want to hold onto a piece of "something" that allows your nonbelief to exist unpreterbed - this is not it". If by nothing else other than association you are describing Hawkings work as magical. I expect more from you. This sort of argument realised the Salem witch trials. I would still like to hear how you can be 100% certain about anything in this existence that we share (excluding taxes). Come on my friend (and I do mean that, you seem a great guy) no one can be 100% certain about anything. |
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leo_london 06-Dec-06, 11:39 |
takes the honest position that what is not understood *could* represent God - the possibility exists." I am glad you posted that. Unfortunately, you seem to be among the few believers who are prepared to be so honest and open. In my ( limited ) experience, expressing doubt/asking difficult questions usually results in alienation from Christian groups. A more open approach, such as we have seen in this thread, would encourage more to explore their beliefs. |
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jd takes the honest position that what is not understood *could* represent God - the possibility exists.> but...as the answer is already 'known' the questions tend to lose some of their edge and impact.... |
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jaymar 06-Dec-06, 11:49 |
Leo.. Then test it and retest it and maybe then say "yes, this is what we have". Accepting this, then religion is at the theory stage. And men die for it. |
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oldguard 06-Dec-06, 11:50 |
No point in debating How can anyone have a rational discussion with someone who believes in the face of all rationality: -That a man was brought back to life after 3 days - That his mother was a virgin -That he walked on water - That he acended into heaven (where's that) like a rocket ship -That they have an invisible friend from whom they get advice I was asked by a chessmate friend to join the Soctatic Club but it seems that the religious are taking over there as well. The main reason that religion has survived so long in the west, I think, is that it is seen as impolite and bad taste to challenge it. Even as I write this I feel that. |
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jaymar 06-Dec-06, 11:56 |
By the way.. I still hate you, you ozzie t**t. (And its not twit). Bring Perth on. |
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jaymar Nothing of the sort. I said the idea that matter and the universe are eternal, always existing, never had a begining. That is magical thinking. I have no beef with the more technical aspects of Hawkings work, nor the expertise, but none of that matters because I am not saying he is wrong about his work merely the conclusion he draws about the eternity of the universe from his work has no basis in reality. ***I would still like to hear how you can be 100% certain about anything in this existence that we share (excluding taxes). Come on my friend (and I do mean that, you seem a great guy) no one can be 100% certain about anything.*** I cannot explain it to you in a way you'd understand. I'm 100% sure. Look, we all bring to the tabel a entire life's worth of experience on top our ever changing like, interests, ideas, paradigms, and constructs. It would be terribly difficult to and try and reguritate the entire thing in such a way that someone else would understand. All of that "stuff" had lead me to where I am today. There was a time in my life when I was not 100% sure, but I am now. I understand if you find this answer less than satisfactory. |
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oldguard Why? Sounds a lot like someone trying to avoid a discussion in which they don't stand a chance ***How can anyone have a rational discussion with someone who believes in the face of all rationality: -That a man was brought back to life after 3 days - That his mother was a virgin -That he walked on water - That he acended into heaven (where's that) like a rocket ship -That they have an invisible friend from whom they get advice*** If there is a God as described in the Bible, then it naturally follow that not only can such things occur, but you would expect them. It is simple logic flowing from premise to conclsuion. If you have a problem with the conclusions - ie miracles happen with the existance of Good - then perhaps you might have some thoughts about the premise? I know, I know, that will take work and you might just get your arse handed to you, so yes it is better to stay away. Perhaps check out some of our others nice a fine threads. Any thoughts about freedom of speech or lactation. You can also take some time to post, "this thread is not worth posting in" and then cut and run. |
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jeff I am afraid I do not follow your thought here, because I am saying the opposite of what you are implying. Questions still get asked, things still get researched. Believers are just honest enough to admit that perhaps the unexplained does represent the supernatural even if they continue to look. |
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jd <If there is a God as described in the Bible, then it naturally follow that not only can such things occur, but you would expect them. It is simple logic flowing from premise to conclsuion.> whatever this is, it is NOT simple logic. it is faith based on....um...faith is not based on anything but the desire for something to be. <Questions still get asked, things still get researched. Believers are just honest enough to admit that perhaps the unexplained does represent the supernatural...> but the whole point here is that you yourself have already admitted that you have 100% certainty of belief...not a lot of fudge factor for alternate ideas there is there? why ask hard questions if you are already 100% sure? right. no reason to do so. the problem with faith in a nutshell...no reason to ask questions because we know the truth...god said so....see...it says so right here. |
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jeff the desire for something to be*** Yes it is. Logic is nothing more than a systematic movement from premise to conclusion. If the premise of the existence God of the Bible is true, then a conclusion that miricles happen is completely valid. If you do not like the conlcusion, you may attack the premise, but it is nothing more than simple logic. You seem to have much more tied up into the idea of "logic" than it actuall permitted by its definition. ***but the whole point here is that you yourself have already admitted that you have 100% certainty of belief...not a lot of fudge factor for alternate ideas there is there? why ask hard questions if you are already 100% sure? right. no reason to do so. the problem with faith in a nutshell...no reason to ask questions because we know the truth...god said so....see...it says so right here*** Once again you are wrong. For instance, just because I have a belief in a special Creation does not preclude me from exploration of said Creation. The greater concept of a Creation does not give any deails about the specifics. The questions are in the deatils. |
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jaymar 06-Dec-06, 13:57 |
jdh.. I continue to seek. I don't mean that in a religious/metaphysical way, its just that it is a big Universe and a big life. Perhaps some people forget how big a deal life is and how much it should be appreciated. In that we are the same, we both appreciate the little things. Maybe one day we will all be able to say "This is it, this is the place". You believe you have found it and who am I to argue? Thats the problem with this sort of discussion. I do not want to disparage your point of view. I did it once and I regret it. I do think that your certainty could well prove to be a weakness in the future and I hope it is never tested. Then again my uncertainty could be my downfall! See you in...? |
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soulcrates 06-Dec-06, 14:57 |
Jdh, Also, I disagree with athiesm, but whole-heartedly understand agnosticism. Questioning our surroundings is what makes perfectability in humans possible. My favorite idea of God, is not only life itself, but the almost impossible circumstances that exist. Our sun, for instance, being a ridiculous amount of times larger than our moon, appear almost the same size when viewed from Earth. This possibility, I'm sure, is very close to 0. This of course, does not prove God, but sure puts the idea out there against atheism. The problem that we do have on Earth is that these people who say they're 100% sure of their belief as being correct, end up killing each other to prove it. Jdh, you can say that you're not one of them, but your speech sure duplicates theirs, like the KKK, and NeoNazis. |
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soulcrates 06-Dec-06, 14:59 |
I would use some examples from their grand wizard, |
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soul by the way, the possibility (or do you mean probability) that the moon and the sun appear the same size is actually 1...meaning 100% certainty. since it is so, the probability is 100%. |
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soulcrates 06-Dec-06, 15:41 |
Mars and Venus? |
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soulcrates 06-Dec-06, 15:42 |
100%? |
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soulcrates 06-Dec-06, 15:43 |
Saturn doesn't have a similar setup, that is 1. |
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soul of course I can see that. ***Being sure in your belief is one thing, but telling someone else their own belief is wrong only creates bitter feelings*** I can appreciate that, but if I'm right, then you're wrong. it's just a simple reality and nothing personal. not everyone can be right. someone has to be wrong. ***You say that you're a doctor, but you sure cannot see more than one side here, so I'm questioning where you got your education*** of course I can see more than one side, my medical education came from one of the 124 accredited allopathic medical schools in the US. ***They [say] the same thing you do, they're 100% correct.*** I understand this. ***The problem that we do have on Earth is that these people who say they're 100% sure of their belief as being correct, end up killing each other to prove it*** Why would I need to kill to prove anything? We do not have to agree for me to be right and you to be wrong. I do not have to kill you for not agree - that's silly nonsense. ***you can say that you're not one of them, but your speech sure duplicates theirs, like the KKK, and NeoNazis. *** Duplicate the White Supremicists? I don't hate anyone. It's pretty difficult to dyplicate hate I do not have. I am really confused why you paint me so. |
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soulcrates 06-Dec-06, 16:00 |
Jdh How does it feel to be wrong? ***You can say that you're not one of them, but your speech sure duplicates theirs, like the KKK, and NeoNazis. *** I'll try to explain <<Duplicate the White Supremicists? I don't hate anyone. It's pretty difficult to dyplicate hate I do not have. I am really confused why you paint me so.>> "Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America!" - KKK www.kkk.bz" target="_blank">-> www.kkk.bz "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited." -Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922 |
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soulcrates 06-Dec-06, 16:03 |
Those examples were merely examples of people using |
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leo_london 06-Dec-06, 16:15 |
Then test it and retest it and maybe then say "yes, this is what we have". Accepting this, then religion is at the theory stage. And men die for it.<< I agree 100%. Perhaps we only differ in that I will also reject nothing while we are still in the research/theory stage. I am interested in everyone's theory and beliefs..I think you are too, but maybe you are quicker than me in calling some things totally irrational. I just wish we had an even wider range of beliefs in our club, sharing like this ( on a much larger scale of course ) might prevent people killing each other over differences of faith. Just one quick general point. Is there anyone here who has not at least hoped there was a " something " out there, that everything did have some kind of meaning, during some dark night of the soul, or when you have lost a loved one. |
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soulcrates 06-Dec-06, 16:34 |
Leo, you're a very bright individual. video.google.com" target="_blank">-> video.google.com Also, here is a couple of site that further research Dr. Khalif's findings. He was killed shortly after coming public with his findings, in Arizona, U.S.A. Amazing amounts of 19's found in this book, amongst other types of mathematical formulas, and sequencing. Here's one where the number of times words are said, equal to each other. www.submission.org" target="_blank">-> www.submission.org This is the main page for that site, and has many other examples. submission.org" target="_blank">-> submission.org This is another site, there are many if you google quran & math y19.net" target="_blank">-> y19.net |
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leo but think about it. isn't the gift of life, of consciousness, of love, breath, beauty, sex, and butterflies enought!!!!!! we have been given the greatest gift ever...a planet, life, all these gifts!!!! and people want moooooorrrrrrreeee....what...not good enough of a gift? you want eternal happiness and a life in paradise forever???? seems kind of greedy to me. what if our purpose is to live our lives in the best way we know how without being bribed by pie in the sky and threatened by damnation? why would god want us around forever anyway? would you? it would be like having billions of in-laws around the house forever. and ever. and ever. god can't be that stupid! sorry to be so sarcastic leo...that was not intended for you. i got kind of carried away. |
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soul It actually saddens me for you to paint me as a member of the KKK, place my words on par with Hitler. I can only imagine how ape-sh*t you would go if the tables were turned - you've done that time and time again. I do not advocate violence, in fact it is *YOU* who always brings up religious war as if it is come sort of preordained occurance. This only further demonstrates your simple, child-like mind - no wonder cowardly Muslims, who think like you, are blowing up women and children. You have no ability to even hold half-way rational conversation. Jaymar is completely right about you, you have no business being moderator. I'm through talking to you. |
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jeff sky and threatened by damnation?*** bribes and threats are not my motivation - what would you know about it anyway? you assume to know the mind of the believer, but what you really know is bulls**t. you have no more idea the motivation of another human being than I. ***why would god want us around forever anyway? would you?*** because God loves us. we are all children of God, but because you have selfishly and childishly (like the assumed motive here?) decided to not have children you have no idea why anyone would want their children around perpetually. if I could spend all day, every day with my son - I would. ***god can't be that stupid!*** Once again assuming you know the mind of a being you claim to not believe, but that is not near as horrible as the mockery, disdain, and contempt. We will be called to task for every idle word, if that gives you pause for a certain amount of common human respect, good . . . if not, it's your life . . . |
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jd |
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leo_london 06-Dec-06, 17:04 |
jeff..Yes it is wonderful. The gift of life, of consciousness, of love, breath, beauty, sex etc...but it is so fleeting. I guess its not enough, I want to be part of something more than just pro-creation. I want to see my mum and dad again, my brother who I never met, what if I lost my wife whom I love dearly..I just dont want to reach the end and have to say...was that it ? You are not being sarcastic, just realistic...but I will continue to live in hope and enjoy all the wonderful things that life can provide. |
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soulcrates 06-Dec-06, 17:27 |
jdh, "How does it feel to be wrong? I do not know because I am not. It actually saddens me for you to paint me as a member of the KKK, place my words on par with Hitler. I can only imagine how ape-sh*t you would go if the tables were turned " You mean like, "jdh71 02-Dec-06, 19:06 [ report | delete ] qiwi my mistake . . . Yes, Heaven is for those who through faith accept Jesus Christ" How does it feel to be wrong? You would go ape-sh** if the tables were turned. You put the blame on everyone else, but cannot even step in the shoes of those you blame. You're wrong. I've proven it by showing what people like you are capable of JDH, and that's genocide. You have no benefits for being a moderator, you are a coward. How do those things feel? You said them to me in the post above. How does it feel coward? You're wrong. |
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soulcrates 06-Dec-06, 17:29 |
Are you baptized Jdh? |
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