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 Exactly when and how is Eternal Life conferred?We all want conversions (including our own), to be 100% legit. We don't want anybody to wake up some day on the wrong side of the "gulf" so to speak, having been deceived into thinking that "all was well" just because the denominational expectations had all been met. Yikes! ______________________________________________________________________________ 2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election SURE: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: ______________________________________________________________________________ 2 Corinthians 13:5 EXAMINE yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; PROVE your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? ______________________________________________________________________________ Many different groups have varying concepts about just how the gift of Eternal life is awarded, and there is a lot of disagreement about the circumstances required in order for such an ALL-IMPORTANT transaction to be completed. It would be most helpful I think if we stepped back and reflected for a moment on the question of just exactly "WHEN and HOW" is Eternal Life conferred? Blessings in Christ Paul |
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Firstly, Eternal life is a GIFT. John 3 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but CANST NOT TELL whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO IS EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit. John 5 21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth WHOM HE WILL. There are examples in the Bible of people receiving the Holy Spirit precisely at the moment of their baptism. There are also examples in the Bible of people becoming true believers when hearing the WORD of God preached. Many in those early days demonstrated sign gifts as evidence of the life giving Spirit of God coming to dwell in their body. There are variations within the Bible itself as to just "WHEN and HOW" such new life was received. Since this seems to be the case within the Scriptures themselves, it might be a very wise thing for all Christians to refrain from giving premature reassurances to those newly professing faith in Christ. Real faith = real changes in our behaviour. The Holy Spirit Himself is the best one to give that assurance that new life has indeed been imparted IMO, and I believe that the Bible bears me out on this. Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YE CONTINUE in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; I believe it to be the case that the irrevocable gift of Eternal Life is often withheld by God (when we might hastily assume it has been imparted), pending the outcome of certain unresolved hidden issues that might be present in our lives at the time of our first profession of faith. This might be all the more true of those who professed faith in Christ at a very early age. I believe that it might be possible to be "tentatively safe" so to speak on the strength of an untested, untried childhood profession, but not yet properly SAVED in the full New Testament sense of the word, by having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God which will "never leave us or forsake us". John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Luke 8:13 (NKJV) But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, WHO BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and in time of temptation FALL AWAY. Just a few of my own observations on this very important subject. We do well to be SURE about such things. Buying into a Church creed, Church baptism, or Church membership does not necessarily mean that we have gotten things settled with God Himself. Such is my concern for all of the household of faith. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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A few more verses connecting Christ with Eternal Life. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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Christ Jesus = Eternal Life! Acts 16 "29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. 34And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house." An unschooled jailer, convicted of his sin, repented of his deeds, heard the message of Salvation, and believed along with his whole household in ONE NIGHT! Eternal Life can be conferred that quickly when there is true repentance and genuine dealing with God. Blessings in Christ Paul |
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vanir 20-Jul-08, 08:50 |
Well spoken in all posts, brother. Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." What more can be said. Except maybe Ephesians 2:8-9. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no man may boast." (NIV) |
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Well said Also Galatians 2:21 "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing" (NIV) and Galations 5:4 "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (NIV) |
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solascriptura 13-Apr-09, 21:02 |
Psa 65:4; Mat 24:24; Jnn 6:37; Jnn 15:16; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:10-24; Rom 11:5-7; Eph 1:3-6; Eph 1:11-12; 1The 1:4; 1The 5:9; 2The 2:13-14 Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (The elect are the chosen ones) Jn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me (It is the Father given to the Son those that will believe in Him)shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Jn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. Notice in these four scriptures salvation is of the Mighty One. Eternal life is given by a God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Namely the Father draws and gives the believer to Christ whom redeems them by his blood and the Holy Spirit sanctifies. Oh how precious are we that believe, precious because of what He has done. Rom 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. The Father foreknew people and made provision for their redeemtion through His Son. Those whom He knew, He predestinated that they would be conformed to the image of His Son. Notice that the text says "He called them, He justified and glorified. If only we believe, what untold treasure await us. Una |
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Correction. hold to this view , but it is erroneous. Such a view requires the complete absence of human choice. Without the possibility of human choice, there can be no human responsibility. Also, that view makes God, not man, the true author of sin. PERISH the thought! Perish the thought! The "chosen" then, are more properly understood as those from every and any nation (Jews and Gentiles), who have faith in God. God calls ALL men. Those who respond in faith are part of the "chosen", or part of the "foreknown" ones whom God has predetermined will be the ones who will one day inherit glory. James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? Blessings in Christ Paul |
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solascriptura 14-Apr-09, 11:48 |
The view does not require an "absence of human choice" but rather God calls us indeed to have faith in Him. We are indeed responsible for our choices we make and are held accountable. It is a foolish thing to assume because God has selected those in an eternity past to salvation that we as the elect or those that are not elect bare no responsibility for our sins. It is for this very reason Christ did come to save the world. God does make an outward call to all men, that does not mean all men respond. It is the inward call to which the Holy Spirit makes which the elect do hear and respond in a righteous manner. We see the history of Israel with many, many individuals who spurn this outward call. One thing to remember is God did not call all men in Ur, but rather one, Abram. God did not call all nations but only save one, that being Israel. Since those in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit are stripped of the shackles of sin which entangle, whom the eyes are opened and the ears unstopped, then when the inward call is made they respond. By the power of regeneration then and only then may the believer not only respond but has salvation. bigpaul is very correct in saying the "chosen" are from every and any nation (Jews and Gentiles), who have faith in God". He is correct in saying "Those who respond in faith are part of the "chosen". Again correct in saying the "foreknown" ones whom God has predetermined will be the ones who will one day inherit glory". Notice the "predetermined" part of his statement. We are predetermined because God has foreknown us, that determination is not based upon our deeds, but upon his mercy and love for those whom He gives Christ. Otherwise grace would not be grace. The matter lies in the very fundamental aspect of sin and did Adam really fall or trip. Is fallen man really dead in their trespasses or just ill. One can actually trace the two beliefs back to Peliguis whom Augustine wrote against. Peliguis believed and taught that man was not fallen but all men were like Adam before he fell, that he can choose salvation on his own merits without the help of God. He taught that original sin was not true. Of course from this believe sprang Semi-Peligianism. Bless |
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The view does require an abscence of human choice. detail, and human choice still survive? It simply cannot. Does God lie when He makes this outward call to all men? Why do you speak of an outward call which goes out to all men, and then deny that all men even posses the ability to respond to this call? God does not call out in vain. He does not tell a man there is hope, knowing full well that there is no hope except for those you would have us believe He personally preselected anyway!!! God is no such deceiver! Calvin was wrong. Augustine whom Calvin leaned on was also wrong. Citing the errors of Peliguis by no means justifies Augustine or Calvin. Man is indeed fallen. His fallen condition is no hindrance to his ability to believe however. Only the devil would come up with an idea that would tell a lost sinner that he might not be able to believe even if he so desired, if he were not on the "list" so to speak. That's just wrong. Paul |
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solascriptura 15-Apr-09, 05:23 |
solascripture answers bigpaul Man's actions are not fully decided from generation to generation. He is totally responsible for his actions. No one is saying he is not. bigpaul:Does God lie when He makes this outward call to all men? Why do you speak of an outward call which goes out to all men, and then deny that all men even posses the ability to respond to this call? God does not call out in vain. He does not tell a man there is hope, knowing full well that there is no hope except for those you would have us believe He personally preselected anyway!!! I never said God lies when he makes an outward call. Just as He commands us to obey, He knows that we will not. Yet, he still commands. Just as He calls out for all men to repent, clearly they do not. That does not make Him a liar, only very knowledgeable of the human condition prior to being born again. bigpaul: God is no such deceiver! Calvin was wrong. Augustine whom Calvin leaned on was also wrong. Citing the errors of Peliguis by no means justifies Augustine or Calvin. Man is indeed fallen. His fallen condition is no hindrance to his ability to believe however. Only the devil would come up with an idea that would tell a lost sinner that he might not be able to believe even if he so desired, if he were not on the "list" so to speak. That's just wrong. Again, I did not state God is a deceiver. Your point concerning Calvin and Augustine is muddled, please be specific which point you consider incorrect. If his "fallen condition is no hindrance to his ability to believe", then why the cross and need of the Holy Spirit. Surely man is able to save himself from your point of view. Again, a Pelegian teaching which Augustine wrote. A "lost sinner" without the Holy Spirit would never even try to believe. Rom3:10-11 10 as it is written, "(A)THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD Blessings, Len |
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A sinners ability to believe.......... here's the link. gameknot.com The rest of Len's post here deals with his response to my arguments that God becomes a deceiver of sorts, if in fact He is calling people and offering people salvation when He Himself knows that that they cannot make good on His offer because He Himself did not specifically enable them to make good on this. Len for the record then, sees no deception by God under such a system of things, whereas I do. Point taken. Len wrote: "Man's actions are not fully decided from generation to generation." This unfortuanately is simply not the position of the Calvinist/predeterministic crowd. Those advocating for "exhaustive foreknowledge" and also for the "Divine pre-creatorial decree" of the whole of human action/history, have quite a differnt story to tell us. Len needs to learn his position a little better IMO. For now, I am happy to leave the discussion on this thread and confine our conversation to the the other thread, where we seem to have a little more agreement on some of the issues. Blessings Paul |
